Maine Legislative Record - House
January 21, 1975
Orders
Mrs. Kany of Waterville presented the
following Order and moved its passage:
ORDERED, that the House Rules be
amended by adding a new House Rule No. 55 to read:
55. The member of the Penobscot Indian Tribe
and the member of the Passamaquoddy Indian Tribe elected to represent
their tribes at the biennial session of the Legislature shall be granted
seats on the floor of the House of Representatives; be granted, by consent
of the Speaker, the privilege of speaking on pending legislation; and be
granted such other rights and privileges as may from time to time be voted
by the House of Representative.
The Order was read.
On motion of Mrs. Kany of Waterville, pursuant to
House Rule No. 54, tabled one legislative day pending passage.
January 22, 1975
Orders
of the Day
The Chair laid before the House the fourth
tabled and today assigned matter:
HOUSE ORDER, Amending the House Rules
Tabled - January 21 by Mrs. Kany of
Waterville
Pending - Passage
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman from Waterville, Mrs.
Kany.
Mrs. KANY: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: Like most freshmen, I had high hopes of bringing innovative
problem solving to the floor of this House. So here I am with my first
presentation merely trying to establish something which had been tradition
in this chamber for over a hundred years.
The Order before you calls for a change in the
House rules to allow a seat and speaking privileges, by consent of the
Speaker of the House, for the two tribally elected Indian Representatives.
It does not call for voting privileges, so there would be no violation of
the one-man, one-vote rule or any possible charges of conflict of
interest.
The Indian representatives had floor privileges
until 1941 when a change in a single word in our statutory law made them
representatives at the Legislature instead of representatives to the
Legislature, relegating them to mere onlookers from the balcony or
lobbyists in the halls.
Why was the change made? The 1939 Legislative
Record shows the storm brewing in debate over a pay raise for the Indian
Representatives, centering on should the Indians, without the
responsibility of voting, have the same pay as other legislators? We still
pay them $2,000, plus 30 days' expenses, per biennium, but don't receive
the benefit of their voice. Many attempts have since been made to
reinstate those floor privileges, and it is important to look at some of
the very legitimate questions which have been raised. Why should the
Indians have a seat and speaking privileges and not other minorities?
And haven't the Indians been adequately
represented in the past? The answer is that Maine's approximately
3,000 Indians are so scattered throughout northeast Maine that they do not
have a real impact in the election of a regular House member. It is
only recently that the two tribes were even allowed to vote for actual
members of this chamber, in 1968 - 6 years ago only with the help of
Representative Mills when he threatened court action. If this doesn't show
Maine historically treating Maine-born Indians like citizens of a separate
nation, I don't know what would. Even so, the State of Maine has never
acknowledged any inherent sovereign powers in the tribes, even though
treaties between Maine and the two tribes include such wording as:
"so long as they shall remain a Nation and reside within the State of
Maine." Nor have the Passamaquoddy and Penobscot Indians been
officially recognized by the federal government as Indians,
primarily because the [original] treaties were made with Massachusetts.
Maine assumed the treaty obligations and also made separate treaties. The
legal questions are extremely complicated. Clarification of the Indians'
legal status has simply not been made.
Perhaps the biggest question is, do the Indians
really want a seat and speaking privileges? I can assure you they do. In
fact, these are all letters and telegrams from members of the two tribes
saying that they do.
What prompted me to introduce this order was
being a member of two separate platform subcommittees on Indian affairs
and listening to public hearing after public hearing in which the Indians
asked for speaking privileges for their tribally elected representatives.
I believe that if we totally ignore reasonable
requests such as this at such public hearings, we make a sham of those
hearings.
I could give you some second-hand information
about the Indians, their acute problems like the reliable estimate that 65
percent of Maine Indians were unemployed in 1973. But I feel like a
parasite relaying second-hand information. Let us give this House the
benefit of the Indians' first-hand knowledge and at the same time allow
them the least a voice in the state's policymaking process which affects
their lives.
We, in our statutory law, even dictate how they
can choose their tribal leaders. The precedent is there for what this
order asks. Let us finally restore the privileges and dignity of the
Indian Representatives.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Bangor, Mr. Kelleher.
Mr. KELLEHER: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen
of the House: First I would like to compliment the gentlewoman from
Waterville on her fine presentation on the floor of the House this
morning. Some of her remarks I do agree with and there are some others
that I don't.
I have opposed this order in previous
legislatures because I feel that we as members of the House, all 151 of
us, come here to represent all the people of Maine. I feel that we
represent not only our own constituents from where we come from, but we
try to represent, with distinction and pleasure to the Indians, the type
of representation that they want.
There are some very capable legislators here that
are elected by the Indians. My seatmate across the aisle, Mr. Mills,
is a very capable man who has presented their problems with eloquence on
the floor of this House, and I think the success of the legislation that
was passed in this House is due to representation like Mr. Mills, Mr.
Binnette, the gentleman from Aroostook County, Mr. Haskell, when he was
here, and Mr. Bither, because of Indians that reside fairly heavily in
their districts.
I don't think that we in this House should be
singling ourselves out to support an order for any particular group or
persons in this State. We are here to represent, and I hope to represent
all the people of Maine.
The Indian Representatives appear before the
appropriate committees where the bills are being heard as other people do
in this state, as other special interest groups do. But unfortunately, the
other special interest groups are not as well provided for as the
legislature provides for for the Indians. I might say that they are
allowed 30 trips here to the legislature to speak in behalf of their
bills. They are allowed telephone privileges. They are allowed a small
compensation for themselves to be here. I think it is $2,000.
I don't believe that this legislature is
unrealistic in its approach and care for the Indians. They have a special
bureau, and they should have. That bureau is well manned and it is well
financed. They present their arguments to the various committees in the
legislature that deal with Indian bills.
I ask this House to not support the order. It
isn't that we are not in tune to like or dislike the Indians - that's not
true at all. You are here to represent them as you are here to
represent everybody else in this State. I hope that this House will
not support the order, and I move for its indefinite postponement.
The SPEAKER: The gentleman from Bangor, Mr.
Kelleher, moves for the indefinite postponement of this House Order.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Enfield,
Mr. Dudley.
Mr. DUDLEY: Mr. Speaker and Members of the House:
I rise to support the motion for indefinite postponement for many reasons.
I think I can speak authentically about Indian people. I represent the
Town of Milford here, which has almost as many Indians as there are on the
Reservation. I have represented them for ten years. I find them very nice
people to represent, and I have had no problems with them. I didn't
think they were unreasonable. I think we are the people that sometimes get
unreasonable when we say there area thousand Indians - this was the figure
given here this morning - there are a thousand that claim to be Indians.
They are the Indians by legislation of this House or the Indian council
puts them on the Council on this registry. But there are not a thousand
Indians by birth in this State, I am sure.
Another figure was given here - 65 percent of
them are unemployed, and 65 percent of them will always be unemployed,
because in my opinion they don't want to work. I have hired them on many
occasions in the past. One or two days is about the limit of my
payroll. They wouldn't show up after that. There are a few that want to
work, and they are working. Those are not the ones we deal with. We send a
delegation, we'll say, up to Old Town to meet the Indians and we get up
there about ten o'clock in the forenoon and the legitimate ones are the
ones that want to work and they're working. They get home at five o'clock,
so we see the ones that are not working, and in some cases, not all cases,
quite a few don't want to work.
I can take you back into a little history in the
House because I have been here a long while. It is true, they did at one
time sit in the House, but at that time they didn't vote for a
representative. They elect Mr. Binnette from Old Town, Mr. Mills, and they
are two of the most able legislators, in my opinion, in the House. They
have got a lot of seniority here, they know their way around, and they
have done well for these people. What I am trying to tell you, in the old
days, they didn't vote for a legislator, but they do vote for a legislator
now.
I would like to bring you up to date a little
further. We had a Democrat candidate, an Indian fellow, Cliff Francis. He
ran twice for the legislature and he is one with more Indian blood than
the average. Perhaps that's the reason he didn't get elected. But let me
tell you, he lost the election by some eight or nine votes. I came down to
the recount with him, and we found that he didn't carry Old Town Island.
We also found that his own people, 34 of them, didn't vote for either him
or his opponent and that he didn't carry the Island. Now, this was in a
general election, and he lost by a very small margin. So my thought in
that vein was that if they had really wanted an Indian Representative in
the House in the place of one of us, they had a chance to do it, because
they either didn't vote for him at all or they voted against him and
perhaps it's because he is a real Indian. There were quite a lot of them
that voted that were obviously Indian by legislation.
My second thought on this is, if we seat minority
groups, I would like to see the House smaller not bigger, and if we do
that I represent a lot of minority groups and I would like to think that I
am doing the very best I can for all of them. I can think and you can, if
you stop and think a minute, of quite a few minority groups that you must
represent, and if we let one group in, then I am going to feel obligated
to let the others have a seat also, because they would have a legitimate
right to be seated in the House.
The Indian people that we pay compensation to
lobby, they are the only lobbyists, if we stop and think about it, that we
actually pay, the State of Maine pays. The other lobbyists are paid by
somebody, not by State funds like us. I feel very strongly that this order
should not pass and so I support the motion.
I am not going to take any more of your time, but
I live pretty close to these people and I have some very good Indian
friends, and if you really want to know something right down to earth
about them, come see me and I can tell you a lot more.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Bangor, Mr. Ingegneri.
Mr. INGEGNERI: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen
of the House: I am perhaps a little presumptous and go against two or
three veterans. I must confess that I did not go into this issue with Mrs
.Kany, and my popping up is strictly spontaneous. When the gentleman from
Enfield, I believe it is, spoke, two phrases came to my mind, phrases that
any legislature or any congress ought to be ashamed of. One is, benign
neglect. We all hear how Mr. Nixon's top administrator used that
expression with reference to the blacks. He used it in an intellectual
sense and, yet, it displayed something that was very deep - would
show that we all know what you are fearing but we feel that if we kindly
leave you alone, you will build yourselves up by the bootstraps and get to
where we are.
In that very thought there is a feeling of
superiority. When the gentleman from Enfield spoke, he used the
expression, "there are 65 percent unemployed, but they always want to
be unemployed." I just can't understand how somebody could assume
that somebody wants to be unemployed or wants to live at about 25 percent
of the living allowance that all of us or the average person has.
Then the expression that we represent everybody,
and why should this minority be singled out among all the others? Very
simply, I think there there is not a minority; it is a nation. It is a
nation that was here before we were here. How best can we express the
gratitude of the hospitality which they showed us hundreds of years ago
when they welcomed the explorers to these shores than by showing them the
hospitality of this chamber?
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Cape Elizabeth, Mr. Hewes.
Mr. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: Speaking as an individual representative from Cape Elizabeth, I
support the motion of the gentleman from Bangor, Mr. Kelleher, to
indefinitely postpone this order.
The founding fathers of this country had a battle
cry: "Taxation without representation." I submit that this order
would provide double representation with less than adequate taxation,
because there is a representative representing everybody in the State of
Maine presently. The State was divided into 151 Districts by the court
just a year or so ago.
I was here in 1967 when the change was made that
allowed the residents of the Indian Reservation to vote back in 1967, and
that is the case now. I don't think it is right to discriminate in favor
of any group, I believe in equality
of all people irrespective of their color, race, creed, national origin or
background.
I would like to point out further that in England
they have a House of Lords. There are certain people who do inherit a
right to sit in a certain parliamentary body, but that is not the case
here. In the Legislature we all run on our own merits and are elected or
defeated accordingly. If, in fact, we were going to let anyone sit, it
would seem to me that former governors - we have two ex-governors in the
state who served fifteen years as governor of this state, and neither one
of them has been around here since January 2 as far as I know. If you are
going to seat anyone, perhaps you ought to seat ex-governors or someone
like that.
What need is there for this legislation? I submit
there is no need. I submit further that there has been no violation of any
treaty. The gentlewoman from Waterville, Mrs. Kany, very graciously gave
me a copy of the Indian Tribal Treaties this morning, and I don't see of
any treat violations. If we owe anything because of a breach of contract,
a breach of treaty, I don't think it is here. There is no treaty that I
know of that says that any Indians will be entitled to two seats in the
Maine House of Representatives, speaking or otherwise.
I am not criticizing individuals who might be
seated; I am sure they are very cultures, intelligent and dedicated and
very fine people, but I just feel that to discriminate in favor of any
group right now is also discriminating against all our constituents. I am
opposed to discrimination and I hope that you will vote in favor of the
indefinite postponement motion, made by the gentleman from Bangor, Mr.
Kelleher.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from York, Mr. Rolde.
Mr. ROLDE: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and
Gentlemen of the House: I rise today to support the order of the
gentlewoman from Waterville and to oppose the motion for indefinite
postponement of the gentleman from Bangor. I do so in several capacities.
First, there are my own personal feelings as to the justice of this
particular action in the seating of the Indian representatives to the
legislature. Secondly, it was quite clear in our Democratic caucus the
other day that a strong majority of the Democrats in the House favor Mrs .Kany's
order. So in my role as majority leader, no matter what my personal
feelings might have been, I would have, in any case, supported the
position that the Indian representatives should be seated. Our democratic
platform has called for this on several occasions.
Primarily, however, my feelings are that this
question is not a political one nor even a great emotional issue although
there are strong emotions involved. To me, it is simply a practical
matter.
I would like to quote verbatim from the statute
that establishes the Indian representative. It reads, "The member of
the Penobscot Indian Tribe and a member of the Passamaquoddy Indian Tribe
elected to represent the tribe at the biennial assembly of the legislature
shall receive a compensation of $1,500 for such attendance and travel as
each legislative session for 20 trips to and from his place of abode at
the same rate the state employees receive, an allowance for meals and
housing expenses as any other member of the Senate and House of
Representatives for 20-days attendance at each legislative session."
So there we have written into the laws of the State of Maine the fact that
the Maine Legislature has accorded a special significance to the two
Indian tribes of Maine, accorded to no other group in the state to the
extent that these two tribes are allowed under the law two special
representatives at the legislature and a state expenditure in excess of
$3,000 is provided for them, and then it is left at that. What a complete
half measure this is.
We spend more than $3,000 of the taxpayers' money
paying for special Indian Representatives to the legislature and then we
really don't let them serve on appropriate committees and put in needed
effort on bills that affect them. We don't, in fact, require anything of
them for this expenditure but, rather, we treat these Indian
representatives in a unique fashion as sort of state subsidized lobbyists
who are kept behind the glass partition in a limbo that isn't even fair to
them nor to us.
Opponents of this order agree that the Indians
should not be seated, because to do so would be discriminatory against all
other minority groups in Maine. Yet those who argue in this fashion should
have the courage to carry their logic to an even farther conclusion, which
is that if it is discriminatory to seat Indian Representatives then it is
also discriminatory to have Indian Representatives and they should be
working to repeal the law that establishes Indian Representatives.
For my part, I believe that as long as we have
Indian Representatives established by law and funded by the taxpayers'
money, they should be seated and given all of the appropriate
opportunities to contribute to our proceedings.
So I ask you to consider this question, not on
the basis of emotion, but whether in your own minds you find any logic in
establishing Indian representatives by statutes as a unique
legislative entity and then not allowing them to function to the fullest
extent possible?
Mr. Speaker, I ask to have the vote taken by the
yeas and nays.
The SPEAKER: The gentleman from York, Mr. Rolde,
has requested a roll call vote.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Eastport,
Mr. Mills.
Mr. MILLS: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: For over ten years, I have represented two Indian Reservations
in the old district that I formerly represented. I now have one Indian
Reservation left, but that is not the important point. The important point
here is that we deal with our Indian Reservation as a nation of people who
are peculiar unto themselves for their own culture. It would be very
difficult for any of us here to understand their type of culture, but it
is very clear, it is traditional, it is historical, and it reaches back
into time.
There is no question that under the American
Revolutionary War and such that the Indians were a great asset to the new
country developing. It is in their history; it is in their graveyards down
there on the reservation. If any of us were to go through one of those
Indian cemeteries and see the creditation on those headstones of the
services these people have performed, they have been one of the strongest
allies this country ever had.
Not to have progress up to ten years back and the
conditions that I found when I became a member of the legislature. When I
went on these reservations I found shacks that you wouldn't keep a pig in.
There was no water, no sewerage, no nothing. Everything was dumped out
into the middle of the street. Their clothes were doled out to them by an
Indian agent from the State of Maine who, incidentally, retired a very
rich man from that job.
To move it along into what we started to
accomplish in the 102nd and the succeeding legislative sessions, there was
a great deal of thinking done here in Augusta. There was a great deal of
action taken on the petal level, not anything that was flamboyant, but
what do you do to help these human beings?
The first bill I introduced went in for $5,000.
It was to establish water on the Indian reservations. There was one pipe
to serve the whole reservation with a faucet to it that had to be thawed
out in the winter time. I was instrumental in introducing a bill here that
went through to establish water and sewerage on the Indian Reservation.
There was quite an argument, a lot of debate. It was a long-winded deal,
and when it was accomplished and constructed on the Indian Reservations in
the State of Maine - then I did get the surprise that I had never
expected, the letters that came to me from doctors all over the United
States, some from Canada, praising what had been accomplished by the Maine
Legislature. The fact of it was that the Indians in their poverty and
their pitiful conditions were known carriers of virus diseases.
To let you know exactly how this thing worked, if
a disease broke out on an Indian Reservation in all the filth that was
accumulated there, --to the Indian way of thinking, one person dying, that
is nothing, two persons dying, that is nothing, but when three or four or
seven more get sick, they start packing up and they leave between two and
five in the morning to all parts of the United states and over into
Canada. According to the American Medical Association, this was the thing
that had been plaguing the physicians for a long time, these people being
the carriers of violent diseases. These were the type of letters that I
received from the doctors.
As you move along on this thing over a ten-year
period of time - I could stand here and talk all day if my voice would
hold out, but I don't think it would - but where we stand here today is
not whether I represent the Indians or who represents them or anything
else. What has been going on in the last ten years with the Indians in
Maine is the fact that they have their own tribal laws. Some of the
clearer thinking Indians who have recently been educated have found that
their tribal laws can be corrupted by a gang that violently takes control
on the reservation. These things I hear and nobody in this House probably
hears them, but to bring this along up to date, what we have been doing in
the past ten years through the Department of Education, Health and
Welfare, various agencies and everything else, is to establish each Indian
reservation as a separate community in village form unto itself. This has
come a long ways. We now have good schools. We have school committees. We
have people there that are now trained and people are capable of making
their own decisions.
Personally, I can see no harm in this
legislature, in a moment of humanity towards the Indian tribes, so called,
but they are in treaty with the State of Massachusetts back before 1820
when the State of Maine became a state unto itself and accepted the
responsibilities that were incumbent on the State of Massachusetts. It is
down in our Law Library dowstairs. Glen Starbird, Associate Commissioner
of Indian Affairs, he knows where these records are and he knows more
about Indians than they know about themselves.
I am not going to bore you with any more of
these things I have been through, but I am going to say this - I see
no reason why we shouldn't seat these Indians and let them speak on their
own Indian affairs when there are bills here for them to consider, as they
are doing it without a vote. This cannot be done because it violates the
United States Supreme Court Rule.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman
from Owls Head, Mrs. Post.
Mrs. POST: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: I was not planning to speak to this order today but feel that I
would like to mention or point out that the debate that has gone on so far
in this House is maybe a perfect example of the reasons why Mrs. Kany's
order should indeed be passed.
Earlier in the debate we heard charges that
Indians don't work or don't want to work.
We heard charges that most likely the Indian
people don't care if they have representatives in this House or don't want
representatives, and although the Indian representatives, which the State
of Maine are paying for, are standing here today behind the glass, they
themselves are not able to refute these charges. I think it is this kind
of situation that needs to be changed and I ask you to vote against Mr.
Kelleher's indefinite postponement.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the
gentlewoman from Auburn, Mrs. Lewis.
Mrs. LEWIS: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: I am not speaking for or against this order, but I merely call
your attention to the Constitution of the State of Maine, Section Two, it
would be on page 8 in the Register and also Section 4, and I wonder if
this shouldn't be a constitutional amendment to increase our numbers to
153 inasmuch it very specifically says, "151 members."
I also would mention for the benefit of some new
members that we have had an Indian. He wasn't a representative of the
Indians, he himself, was an Indian, Ross Dyer, who was here in the last
session, a representative from Strong.
The SPEAKER: The Chair would advise the members
of the House that the Attorney General, James Erwin, ruled two years ago
that it would not be a violation of the Constitution if our rules were
amended to add Indian representation.
The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Lewiston
Mr. Jalbert.
Mr. JALBERT: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen of
the House: I dislike intensely this type of debate on the floor of this
House. I particularly dislike getting up this morning because of my own
personal feelings for the gentleman from Bangor, Mr. Kelleher., and the
gentleman from Enfield, Mr. Dudley. I might say in passing that as
far as Mr. Dudley is concerned, when he talks about people that don't
work, he certainly doesn't mean himself because he is a three-shift man.
He will be the first one to admit. And I am not out of order, Mr. Speaker.
When I was a member of the minority back in 1945
- and I am not speaking now as a member of the majority party in the
House, A am talking about my own background, an American of Canadian
ancestry. In 1945 I was in the minority. A very short while ago in a
discussion with my very lovely lady from Pemaquid, a good solid "Worp,"
I informed her that if you would tie up all the Americans of Italian
ancestry, the Americans who call themselves Anglo-Saxons who are our
so-called Worps, and I love them, the Americans of Greek ancestry and
Americans of Polish or Lithuanian ancestry and so on, if you tie it all up
and then us old Americans of Canadian ancestry group ourselves together,
we are the majority.
I don't consider myself any better than anybody
else. I have never been maligned since I have been here in 1945. Nobody
has ever been maligned since I have been here in 1945. Nobody has ever
thrown anything at me as far as my background and my ancestry is
concerned. If they did, they would hear from me and find out that I was in
pretty good voice. We are not giving anything here to them that they
didn't have before.
I can recall working for a governor back in the
thirties and there was an Indian sitting right in that corner seat. As a
matter of fact, if my memory serves me right, there were two of them, and
I think it stopped in 1939.
I might state to my good friend from Cape
Elizabeth, Mr. Hewes, that things have changed since 1974. I am going with
my leader.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Old Town, Mr. Binnette.
MR. BINNETTE: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen
of the House: I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't get up here as
the representative of the Indians of the Penobscot Tribe and if I
didn't try to express my thoughts on this matter.
I have a great deal of respect for my Indian
brothers and sisters, as I have lived across the river from their
Reservation for over 70 years. I have had many occasions they have been to
my place and they are most welcome. AS a matter of fact, I would rather
have some of those Indians sit in my home than some of the Democrats in my
town.
I think we try to represent these people to the
best of our abilities. My friend Senator Sewell, who lives across the
river also, he has been highly in accord with me on a lot of measures
which pertain to the Indians. We try to do what is right for them, and
whenever they need help we are right there to help them. We will do
anything we can. I am speaking for Senator Sewell. He has assured me that
anything that they need, he will do everything in his power to see that
they get it. I don't know what is going to be gained if they sit up here.
There is no question about it; they have no vote. They do have a right to
come to us as their representatives and we will listen to their ideas. As
a matter of fact, I have a lot of bills that are going to be presented
before this body and I hope you will give me support on it because it is
something that pertains to their laws which they would like to have
corrected.
I also believe that they should be entitled to
sit on the committees in regard to Natural Resources so they could ask the
questions that pertain to their tribes, whatever it is. So those are the
thoughts that I have in there but I don't believe in this order. I think
we can accomplish as much without the order.
I think our majority leader said it was in the
platform, I agree. There are a lot of things in the platform that I am not
going to go into, I will tell you that right now. I really believe that it
is entirely up to every member's mind or thoughts as to how they feel in
this regard. If it is of a benefit for these people, well and good but as
far as I can see, it will repeat it again, I don't see as it is going to
be anything to their benefit to be allowed to sit down there. I think they
could gain far more by contacting various legislators in regard to some of
their measures and I certainly hope that this debate has not created a
difference for these people.
I have been reading about these drumbeats and all
that sort of stuff. I haven't had a drumbeat from any of those people over
there in regard to having a seat, but I have heard on many occasions, many
an evening, the beating of drums on some other things.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Bangor, Mr. Henderson.
Mr. HENDERSON: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentlemen
of the House: I rise to oppose my good friend, the gentleman from Bangor,
Mr. Kelleher's motion of indefinite postponement.
I would like to call the attention of the House
to a recent report of the Maine Advisory Committee to the U.S. Commission
on Civil Rights which had to do with the condition of Indians in the State
of Maine, and that report was not a very happy one. I suppose if we
consider ourselves the representatives of all the people of Maine,
including the Indian people, I think we have to feel to the extent that we
could have done anything about about it, we haven't done a very good job.
I don't have the report but only news reports of it. It says it points to
a long and tiresome struggle against the insensitivity of agencies and the
carelessness of men in power. It should have said "and women" -
to the needs of the Indian people.
In addition, it went on to describe the problems
of housing and others that we are well aware of, but one of the things it
did point out was that many programs that are developed for the Indians
are those in which they are not consulted. There was a recent program set
up by the Community Action Program in the Penobscot and Piscataquis area
requesting funds for children and other youth services for individuals in
the area, including Indians. It was only after they got the funds that
someone asked if they had consulted the Indians as far as the way these
funds are going to be used and they said no. But they hadn't even got any
input from that community.
I hope that we can be a little bit broader in
that kind of decision that we have to make and get that needed input.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Brewer, Mr. Cox.
Mr. COX: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman of the
House: I have been listening to this debate, which seems to me to have
gone on too long. I have just written a little summary of the differences
of this group from the other minority groups which exist in our State, and
the point has been raised that this is just another minority group. This
is not just another minority group. This group has territory assigned by
law to this group as a group. They have their own laws; they have their
own culture. How can a member of the Anglo-Saxon majority effectively
speak for this minority with any deep knowledge of their problems?
Mr. SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlemen
from Enfield, Mr. Dudley.
Mr. DUDLEY: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman of
the House: I will be very brief. I don't think I was understood very
clearly when I was before you before when I tried to point out that prior
to 1946 or a certain date - I think it was about then - when they did sit
in the House, at that time they were not in the legislative district. They
didn't vote for a legislator. Today they do. I think there is some
discrepancy when you say one man, one vote. The federal court said one
man, one vote. The federal court - we didn't say that, the Maine court
didn't say that, the federal court said one man, one vote. From that point
on we tried to divide these districts equally. These Indian people do now
vote for a legislator. Prior to that they didn't: they didn't have a man
in the House. That is the difference between then and now. They do vote
for a legislator. I assume for a minute that they elect Mr. Binnette, and
they elect the man from Eastport, Mr. Mills, then if we seat two more men
and there are only a thousand Indians, this doesn't prescribe to the
federal court order of one man, one vote. Then there will be one thousand
Indians who have four legislators in the House.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman
from Waterville, Mrs. Kany.
Mrs. KANY: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman of
the House: Once again, we are in no way talking baout granting voting
privileges, as the representative from Enfieldjust implied we do. We don't
have treaties with any of the other minorities and with their heirs
forever, as stated in the treaties. I was wondering if the gentleman from
Enfield really believes that only 35 percent of the Maine Indians are
interested in working? I have a different understanding of that.
Also, the gentlemen from Cape Elizabeth was
wondering about the treaty violation, and of course, there is litigation
in the courts at this time because of treaty violations.
Just one more comment and that is, does the
representative from Old Town really believe the Indian Representatives can
be effective without speaking on legislation affecting them while standing
at the back of this house? I think this is a question of dignity.
The SPEAKER: The Chair recognizes the gentlemen
from Old Town, Mr. Binnette.
Mr. BINNETTE: Mr. Speaker, Ladies and Gentleman
of the House: In answer to the gentlewoman from Waterville, she makes
reference in regard to what I said about the Indians being able to contact
other people. I can tell you from my past experience, and I have been here
many years, many a legislator haven't gotten up and spoken on some
measure, but he has had good advice from out in back of the hall, and it
has been very good and valuable advice.
The SPEAKER: The gentleman from York, Mr. Rolde,
has requested a roll call vote. For the Chair to order a roll call, it
must have the expressed desire of one fifth of the members present and
voting. All those desiring a roll call vote will vote yes; those opposed
will vote no.
A vote of the House was taken, and more than one
fifth of the members present having expressed a desire for a roll call, a
roll call was ordered.
The SPEAKER: The pending question is on the
motion of the gentleman from Bangor, Mr. Kelleher, that House Order
relative to amending House Rules to Seat Indian Representatives be
indefinitely postponed. All in favor of that motion will vote yes; those
opposed will vote no.
(Roll call omitted)
The SPEAKER: Fifty-two having voted in the affirmative and ninety-five in
the negative, with four being absent, the motion does not prevail.
The pending now before the House is, shall this
House Order receive passage?
Mr. Finemore of Bridgewater requested a roll call
vote.
The SPEAKER: The gentleman from Bridgewater, Mr.
Finemore has requested the yeas and nays. For the Chair to order a roll
call, it must have the expressed desire of one fifth of the members
present and voting. All those desiring a roll call vote will vote yes;
those opposed will vote no.
A vote of the House was taken, and more than
one-fifth of the members presnt having expressed a desire for a roll call,
a roll call was ordered.
The SPEAKER: The pending question is on House
Order to Amending House Rules relative to Indian Representatives. All in
favor of this House Order receiving passage will vote yes; those opposed
will vote no.
(Roll call omitted)
The SPEAKER: One hundred and seven having voted
in the affirmative and forty in the negative, with four being absent, the
motion does prevail.
The SPEAKER: The Chair at this time would recognize in the back the
Representative of the Penobscot Tribe, Ernest Gosselin and would assign
him to seat No. 152
The chair recognizes the Reppresentative from the
Passamaquoddy Tribe, Joseph Nicholas, and would assign him to seat No. 61.
Thereupon, the Sargeant-at-Arms and Assistant
Sargeant-at-Arms escorted Indian Representatives Ernest Gosselin and
Joseph Nicholas to their respective seats on the floor, amid the applause
of the House.