Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Advisory Council Meeting
September 24, 2006 - 7:00 P.M.
Presque Isle Fish and Game Club
Parsons Road, Presque Isle, ME
Attending:
Roland D. Martin, Commissioner
Andrea Erskine, Assistant to the Commissioner
Marc Michaud, Director, Information and Education
Mark Stadler, Division Director Fish and Wildlife
Rich Hoppe, Regional Wildlife Biologist
John Boland, Director, Fisheries Operations
Sgt. Brian Gray, Warden Service
Sgt. Dan Menard, Warden Service
Wdn. Rick Ouellette
Wdn. Dave Simmons
Wdn. Bailey Grant
Wdn. Alan Curtis
Wdn. Mike Pierre
Wdn. Anthony Gray
Wdn. Ryan Fitzpatrick
Wdn. Ed Christie
Becky Orff, Secretary and Recorder
Council Members:
Bos Savage – Chair
Leo Kieffer – Vice Chair
Ron Usher
Lance Wheaton
Joe Clark
Sheri Oldham
Stephen Philbrick
Mike Witte
Ray Poulin
Guests:
Senator Bruce Bryant
Representative Troy Jackson
Representative Peter Edgecomb
Dick Fortier, President, Presque Isle Fish & Game Assoc.
Curtis Blouin, Vice-President, Presque Isle Fish & Game Assoc.
Pete Hildard, Presque Isle Fish & Game Assoc.
Nick Archer, Presque Isle Fish & Game Assoc.
Matt Libby, Former Advisory Council Member
Charlie Beck, Former Advisory Council Member
Barry Flood, Washburn
Joe Powers, ME Trapper’s Assoc.
I. Call to Order
Bos Savage, Council Chair, called the Council meeting to order.
II. Introductions
Introductions were made.
III. Acceptance of Minutes of Previous Council Meeting
Motion made by Mr. Clark and seconded by Mr. Usher to accept the minutes of the previous Council Meeting as written.
Vote: All in favor – minutes accepted as written.
III-A. Election of Officers
Commissioner Martin stated that the election of officers, by statute, takes place in May of each year. This year, because of a resignation, election of officers did not take place. Those elected today would be in effect until May 2007.
Motion made by Mrs. Oldham and seconded by Mr. Usher to nominate Mr. Savage as Council Chair. There were no further nominations.
Vote: unanimous; Bos Savage elected as Council Chair
Motion made by Mr. Usher and seconded by Mr. Wheaton to nominate Mr. Kieffer as Council Vice-Chair. There were no further nominations.
Vote: unanimous; Leo Kieffer elected as Council Vice-Chair
IV. Rulemaking
A. Step 3
1. 06-07 Beaver Seasons and Closures
Mr. Stadler stated that the Department had received a couple of comments during the public comment period. The Maine Trapper’s Association (MTA) presented language to the agency regarding the spring component of the muskrat season. Muskrats are allowed to be taken (incidentally) during the extended beaver trapping season. When we made some modifications to the beaver season, we terminated the trapping season on March 31. MTA suggested that it be allowed that muskrats be taken after March 31 through the beaver season, but only with the use of killer-type traps, colony traps and that all traps must be set to remain completely underwater at all times. The Wildlife Division and the Department are in agreement with this. As a result of their comment, we have added that into the proposal. The muskrat season proposal would have been modified since Step 2.
Mr. Stadler stated that the other change being proposed is in WMD 12, originally the White Mountain National Forest lands in the town of Stoneham were closed, and the White Mountain National Forest has requested that land be open to trapping. We have deleted that from the proposal so the White Mountain National Forest lands in the town of Stoneham will be open. As a result of that, all of Stoneham will be open to beaver trapping.
Council Member Comments and Questions
Commissioner Martin stated the Department would like to move forward and asked for the Council’s consent with these two amendments. However, in the packet, there was a 2-page correspondence from the Downeast Chapter. This is a letter that was sent to the MTA. At a recent forum this was brought to the Commissioner’s attention and the folks in Princeton had asked that he incorporate that as their position. It appeared there was some disagreement between the MTA and the Downeast Chapter. Mr. Wheaton has asked to speak in relation to this.
Mr. Wheaton stated he had received quite a few phone calls and talked to many people down that way that did a lot of trapping. They felt that that part of April…they like things uniform. They weren’t thinking that they would keep other trapping out of there and just leave the April season open. What they’d like is to have it uniform so that you’re trapping all over other than targeting of beaver, etc., setting traps in the middle of streams and targeting otter. Also, it was brought to his attention that the 15 days in April, with the news media and so many anti-trappers against us, if the news media saw some of those beaver and otter opened up and the little ones inside, if we had that on the news, could we lose it all? Let’s not take the chance of losing that season. From the trappers Downeast, they would like to see the 15 days in April go away and just go until March 31.
Commissioner Martin stated that he wasn’t sure if the MTA responded to the Downeast Chapter, but he specifically asked the question in Calais if MTA had responded, and he wasn’t sure what the indication was. He did know that the MTA did not necessarily agree with Downeast’s requst, nor does the Department. Our proposal does not include Downeast’s wishes.
Mr. Kieffer asked what had transpired between the two organizations.
Joe Powers, Treasurer for MTA stated that the MTA structure; they were broken up into Chapters but the Chapters were not separate entities. They would fall under the umbrella of the MTA. It was voted on and discussed at the last Director’s meeting and their feelings were very well put forth. At the time, the Board of Directors did not feel it was necessary to hold out those 15 days. They (Downeast Chapter) were fully aware of it and knew what the vote was after they left the Director’s meeting. The Department received a letter from the MTA stating their position on September 6, 2006.
Mr. Kieffer stated that he still hadn’t heard the result of a sit-down meeting. Was there such a meeting and was there any agreement ever reached? Are they still in opposition to the proposal of the MTA?
Mr. Wheaton stated that he had only spoken with the Downeast Chapter over the phone. He had spoken with three individuals.
Mr. Savage asked Mr. Wheaton when he had last spoken with them.
Mr. Wheaton stated last night. They wanted to come and testify at the Council meeting but it was after the close of the public comment period. Their biggest worry was having the one area open in the state where everything else was closed and also of the young being exposed. If the news media got a hold of it they would hate to see the trapping season be lost because of 15 days.
Mr. Powers stated that some of the seasons were longer than that in the Northern part of the State. In WMDs 1-6 the season would be open until April 30.
Motion made by Mrs. Oldham and seconded by Mr. Usher to accept the proposal as amended.
Vote: 7 in favor; 2 abstained – proposal accepted as amended.
B. Step 2
1. 2007 Spring Turkey Season
Mr. Stadler stated we were proposing to maintain a season structure for the spring hunt like we’ve used for the last few years; spring season with an A, B split with the season split being determined by odd and even birth years. We have received a request to add WMD 7 to the turkey-hunting zone. We also received two proposals from the National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF). One of them was to encourage youth hunting of turkey. We came up with a proposal basically that says youth hunters can hunt any Saturday during the turkey season whether they have the A or B season. The NWTF also requested that the Department consider amending the shot size requirements to do away with #2 size shot and go with #4 and #6 for the spring turkey hunt. We reviewed that and decided we would go with that proposal.
Council Member Comments and Questions
Mrs. Oldham asked if it would be simpler to have a youth turkey hunting license rather than making them an A or B season?
Mr. Stadler stated to allow them to hunt the full 5-week season; that would be something that we could consider.
Commissioner Martin stated that there may be more than one piece of legislation introduced to that affect in the upcoming session.
Mrs. Oldham asked if it could be done through the rulemaking process and make that legislation not necessary?
Mr. Stadler stated his suggestion would be to move forward with the rulemaking proposal as is and when approved, direct the agency to consider this proposal for 2008. If this was to be expanded, an internal review with staff would need to be conducted and it should be discussed with the NWTF. Another issue is the kids being in school, that’s why it was asked for them to have additional opportunity on Saturday because they wouldn’t be in school.
Mr. Philbrick stated he thought it was a great idea if we could do this through rulemaking. Anything to encourage youth in these activities.
Mr. Savage asked if they would like to take a show of hands of who would be in favor of this and who would be opposed in case there is an opportunity to move this forward?
A show of hands was done and the Council was unanimously in favor.
Commissioner Martin stated we would look at the logistics and confer with the NWTF and see what could be done.
Mr. Kieffer stated that under some of the new types of shot there were mixed shot sizes in the same shot. He wasn’t sure that saying #4 or #6 was clear enough to establish what would be legal and what would not.
Mr. Savage stated there might need to be some clarification in the language.
There were no further comments or questions.
2. Miscellaneous Fish Regulation Proposals
Mr. Boland stated there was a small pond in Deblois currently open to open water fishing and limited to kids only. There had been a request that kind of fell through the cracks to extend that into the winter season. We’ve proposed to add the winter season, kids only regulation, 2-lines and 2-fish to that particular water body. It’s Foxhole Pond in Deblois.
Mr. Boland stated the second water was the Kennebec River. We had learned that our regulations on the lower Kennebec above tidewater weren’t in line with the striper regulations. We’ve altered our regulations in that lower section of the Kennebec to align with striper fishing regulations so that in the Kennebec where the striper regulations are artificial lures only during the spring up until July 1, ours are the same right now in fresh water.
Mr. Boland stated lastly, there’s a cluster of 30 or so waters…last winter we formed a Committee to take a look at wild brook trout ponds and reported back to the IF&W Legislative Committee with recommendations on how to manage those. One of the recommendations was to take these 30 or so waters and apply no live fish as bait, or artificial lure only restrictions on them. We forgot to include them in the original packet, they’re in this miscellaneous packet and if approved by the Council it will be in the fishing regulations booklet this coming year.
Council Member Comments and Questions
Mr. Kieffer asked why Cunliff Lake had been added to the no live fish as bait. It was similar to 20 or 30 other bodies of water of that size that all drained into the Allagash.
Mr. Boland stated that in the Committee that was formed last winter, some recommendations were made and there were some statute changes made about 1 ½ years ago on Maine’s native brook trout lakes and ponds. The Legislative Committee asked us about the waters that didn’t qualify as native; waters that may have been stocked in the past but they’re not stocked anymore and the fishery was supported by natural reproduction. We looked at our data and came up with about 300 waters that fit the bill as “wild brook trout waters”. These are waters that may have been stocked in the past but haven’t been stocked in at least 25 years. We’ve asked our staff biologists around the state to make recommendations on which ones don’t already have no live fish as bait restrictions and should have them to protect them from the introduction of minnow or bait species into those ponds. Mr. Boland wasn’t familiar with Cunliff itself. Staff came up with the list of 30 or 35 waters that those regulations should be applied to.
Mr. Kieffer asked why only that pond? There are many other ponds that all drain into the Allagash. Whether they contain only native trout or not is sort of an academic question, but in Cunliff there were yellow perch, suckers, chubs and its still Allagash water. There are many other waters that are the same. He would like it to be consistent. If we were singling out that particular pond that drains into the Allagash and applying regulations to it, we should do the same for all other similar ponds.
Mr. Boland stated that was a point that had been brought up. Beginning this fall, we were going to expand the Committee’s efforts and broaden the scope of the Committee a little bit. We went with these 30 or 35 waters, as he recalled, out of the 300 waters there were about 80 or 90 that did not have some sort of restriction on the use of live bait. There were still 40 or 50 waters still classified as wild trout waters, but they still allowed the use of live bait. The reason we didn’t make the big leap and include all of those waters is because we felt we would risk losing the whole thing because some of those are very traditional popular waters. The way it is written right now, in a few years Moosehead Lake would be on there. Before we took the step to identify all the brook trout waters and make them all no live fish as bait, we wanted to go through this first step and go back to the Committee and look at the remaining waters. We’ll be doing that this fall and winter. Mr. Kieffer’s point had been brought up a couple of times, in other words, why not make all of the Allagash Drainage and all of the St. John Drainage no live fish as bait. It’s a good point and the reason we haven’t done it yet is because there would be a lot of opposition to it. We want to get everything in order before we get to it.
Mr. Kieffer stated he would like to see it done right the first time or not done at all. It was hard to justify to the public, half a loaf. If it meant putting it off until the Committee gets back together and comes back with a comprehensive proposal, he would support that. When someone asked him the reason for singling out one lake, he couldn’t justify it.
Mr. Boland stated there were other reasons that were built into that decision. Some of the biologists took a look at these waters; there are a lot of these waters that probably live bait are hardly ever used on. Other waters were kept off the list because the populations of competing species was extremely high and ice fishing upstream or downstream of these waters was taking place and the ice fishing wasn’t taking place on a wild trout water. Some of the waters were left off the list because now you would have a water that would be closed to the use of live bait and possibly immediately upstream there would be a lake open to ice fishing where you could use live bait but it might not be classified as a wild trout water. There were a lot of different issues.
Mr. Savage asked how we were going to differentiate between these waters?
Mr. Boland stated that the way we’ve classified the waters up to now, we went through the Legislature 1 ½ years ago and we passed some statutes on native trout ponds. Those are waters that have never been impacted by stocking as far as we know. Then we decided as a Committee that a wild trout water will be a water that hasn’t been stocked for 25 years at least and still supports a wild trout fishery. That’s the list that we’re working with right now. As time goes on waters will be added and waters may be subtracted from that list.
Commissioner Martin asked if the Council would be interested at a future meeting to have a full-blown explanation of the process?
The Council agreed they would like to have a presentation on the process.
Mr. Savage asked Mr. Kieffer if he felt he had gotten some explanation for his people.
Mr. Kieffer stated he understood what John was saying, but he would like to see the scientific reason for adding this particular lake and not doing the neighboring ones that were almost exactly the same.
Mr. Boland stated that he could have Dave Basley call Mr. Kieffer and address the reasons why one water made it and why another one didn’t.
Commissioner Martin stated that not withstanding that debate, was anybody opposed to what was before them at Step 2? If so, now would be the time to discuss that.
There were no further questions or comments.
C. Step 1
1. 2007 Moose Season
Mr. Stadler stated that the season would be a similar date format as in the past. In 2006 we issued 2,825 permits and in all likelihood in 2007 we’ll be issuing close to that number.
Commissioner Martin stated that with regards to the moose hunt, we would tentatively be holding a meeting in Fort Kent on October 24 in regards to determining what the 2007 permit allotment would be. This was a commitment that the Department made to Representative Jackson when a piece of Legislation was introduced last spring that would have had the Legislature determine what the permit amounts would be. As the Legislation was withdrawn, we had an agreement that we would hold a public informational meeting, specifically in the St. John Valley because of the many fatalities up there.
Mr. Savage clarified a question posed by Mr. Clark. Had there been discussions about the differences in the number of permits between when that decision was being made in the Legislature and now that permit numbers were being determined by the Commissioner’s office?
Commissioner Martin stated he made the determination of what the numbers were going to be based on science, politics had a little bit to do with it and also the demographics of the area. In regards to the process, because of the input received by the Advisory Council and public input he thought we could base the numbers more on science than political ramifications. Having been in both spectrums he would not recommend going back to the days when the Legislature spent days debating the moose hunt.
Mr. Witte stated he had had several people ask about where the Southern Maine moose hunt stood at this point?
Mr. Stadler stated that the Department would be holding its second round of public informational meetings on a definite proposal for moose hunting in WMDs that are the fringe around the current moose hunting area. Those would be added in 2008 during the November firearms season so folks would be able to hunt moose during the entire month of November during the firearms deer season in WMDs on the fringe of where moose hunting is currently allowed. We have every intention of moving statewide with this a year or two later. The next round of informational meetings would be October 25 and 26, 2006; one in Thorndike and one in Bridgton. Following those, staff would be preparing a report for the Legislature.
Mr. Witte asked if we had any idea of the number of permits that might be issued?
Mr. Stadler stated that our intent was to go cautiously.
Mr. Witte asked if the Council would be notified of the public informational meetings?
Mr. Stadler stated yes.
There were no further questions or comments.
V. Other Business
1. Public Info. Mtg. In Millinocket re: Nesowdnehunk/Medway Dam
Mr. Boland stated that at the last meeting there was some discussion about the regulations at Nesowdnehunk Lake and Stream and regulation changes on the Penobscot below the dam in Millinocket. It was decided that it would be worthwhile to hold a public informational meeting in the Millinocket area to address some of those concerns as well as any other fishing related concerns. Regional biologist Mike Smith and Mr. Clark would set the date for the meeting.
Mr. Poulin stated that they had held a number of fishery meetings in Millinocket and had very limited turnout. They held meetings in Brewer for the same issue and it was packed. Just an FYI.
Mr. Clark stated the people that had questions were mostly from Southern Aroostook to Northern Penobscot and down to Howland; that was about it. He and Mike would discuss it.
2. Bass Meeting – October 12 at 3:00 pm
Mr. Boland stated that this year we had a lot of complaints/concerns regarding tournament bass fishing. Complaints ranging from tournament anglers not respecting private property and casting onto docks where people were trying to sunbathe and swim; encroaching in swim zones with their boats; tournaments that were held in public venues and lots of dead bass and lots of folks supposedly not paying attention to transporting plants and milfoil; speeding in no wake zones, etc. We’ve decided to pull together all the reps from the 5 or 6 different bass factions. We’ve invited all those folks to participate in a meeting that will be held in Augusta on October 12, 2006. Essentially we’re just going to talk about some of these issues and come up with a plan to address some of the issues.
Commissioner Martin stated that we were concerned that if we’re not proactive that we’re going to be seeing legislation introduced regarding bass tournaments. We had been receiving an unusual amount of complaints, e-mails and inquiries from legislators.
3. East Grand Lake Ice Fishing Regulations
Mr. Boland stated that Mr. Wheaton had brought up the issue at the last meeting where he felt that possibly the ice fishing ought to be cut back a little back, it had a three month season and other lakes had a two month season. With the landlocked alewives in there and the reduced stocking rate, it wasn’t supporting a good fishery for 9 or 10 months of the year. Mr. Boland had Mike Smith get in touch with Mr. Wheaton and Mr. Smith had assured him that over the next several months they would be meeting to talk about regulations at East Grand.
Mr. Wheaton stated that he did get a call from Mr. Smith and they talked and were both in agreement. They would continue to work on the issue.
4. Fish River Falls Project
Mr. Boland stated that close to two years ago we had a report from the Army Corp of Engineers; we had an Outdoor Heritage Fund grant that paid for them to go to Fish River Falls to try to decide whether or not that was passable to muskies and bass. Their report said yes, it was passable to bass and likely muskies. They made a recommendation to prevent fish from migrating up through there. In their report they recommended altering the falls to make it a barrier to bass. A few months into it somebody brought up using an electrical barrier. Dave Basley worked with Smith Group for 6 or 8 months to see if something like that would work. Indeed it would, however, Dave also was taking a look at estimates for construction and timelines, etc. What we were asked to do at the last meeting was come up with a final recommendation.
Mr. Boland stated they were there in the last few days with an electrofishing boat and the bass have moved out of the St. John River all the way up to fish river right to the falls. The estimates to reconfigure the falls to make it impassible to bass are about $1 million. On the electrical barrier, which they would install upstream at a bridge, also this came in higher than we expected. Essentially, that estimate is about $1 million. The company would come in and do some in stream work below the dam to kind of level off the substraight and they pour a cement base with the electrical wires in it. There’s a generator off site that’s generating electrical current through that water column. It would run continuously so once its up and built you’re looking at electrical expenses on a monthly basis and maintenance forever. Safety and other issues may be a concern. Our recommendation is to reconfigure the falls. Cost is about $1 million (about the same) do it once and it would be done.
Mr. Savage stated that obviously, there were no other runs of fish that were able to negotiate the falls. With the electrical unit we would be eliminating all migration up and down through that point. We would sacrifice other runs of fish going down or up?
Mr. Boland stated we would certainly sacrifice some downstream migration.
Commissioner Martin asked Mr. Boland if we had asked Mr. Kieffer to connect with someone up there regarding another possibility?
Mr. Boland stated that Mr. Kieffer had a recommendation for an alternative way to create a barrier and he forwarded Mr. Kieffer the name of the engineer at the Army Corp.
Mr. Kieffer stated he had not received the information. He had changed e-mail addresses.
Commissioner Martin stated we would resend that information. As an FYI, we were now trying to secure a sponsor for funding for the project. We’re going to be working with the Appropriation’s Committee and see if we could secure funding and move forward with this initiative.
Mrs. Oldham asked Mr. Boland if he was sure there were no bass above the falls now?
Mr. Boland stated we went in with the electrofishing boat above the falls and they spent 2 or 3 days in the river. Mr. Basley went back with a backpack unit along some shorelines and in some stillwater areas and didn’t find any.
Mr. Wheaton asked if there was a 100% guarantee that once this was built the fish wouldn’t get over it?
Mr. Boland stated absolutely not. As far as swimming, he would say yes, based on the design.
5. Petitions
Mrs. Erskine stated that the Administrative Procedures Act (APA) has a provision in there for a petition process. If we receive a petition with 150 signatures or more we have to initiate rulemaking on their request. If its fewer than 150 signatures the Commissioner can deny it. Right now she was working on 5 petitions, 3 of which had the required number of signatures; 2 did not have the required number of signatures; 1 she sent back and the other one was on hold as she had been told more signatures would be coming. Normally we have a 3-step process. Sometimes in the case of petitions we skip Step 1. Usually when we have a Step 1 item we’re letting the Council know what we’re going to be doing and getting feedback. With petitions, we have no choice and we have to initiate rulemaking.
VI. Councilor Reports
Councilors gave reports.
Rich Hoppe spoke briefly about the Southern Aroostook County trap and transfer program for wild turkeys.
VII. Public Comments & Questions
There were no public comments or questions.
VIII. Agenda Items & Schedule Date for Next Meeting
The next meeting was scheduled for October 19, 2006 at 9:30 a.m. at Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, Augusta Headquarters in the upstairs conference room.
Commissioner Martin stated that several weeks ago he had shared with the Council that a group from CA, the Animal Protection Institute, had filed their intent to sue the State of ME, the Department, the AG’s office and the Governor’s office in regards to the Endangered Species Act and the lynx, wolf, bald eagle situation. Since then they offered us a proposal that we turned down. Now, they have filed suit with the State of Minnesota to ban all trapping in that state.
Commissioner Martin stated that at the Boothbay meeting we were scheduled to talk about our wildlife division data that Mrs. Oldham had requested. That was delayed, but was on the schedule for the October 19 meeting.
IX. Adjournment
Mr. Clark motioned to adjourn the meeting and Mr. Philbrick seconded that. The meeting was adjourned at 9:00 p.m.
