Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Natural Resources Service Center
6 Beech Street, Hallowell
November 17, 2008 1:00 pm
A meeting of the Department of Marine Resources Lobster Advisory Council was held on this date at the Natural Resources Service Center, Hallowell. Council members attending this meeting included: Chair Bob Baines (Non-Zone Lobsterman), John Drouin (Zone A), Dan MacDonald (Zone C), Jon Carter (Zone B), Gerry Cushman (Zone D), Larry Knapp (Zone E), Elliott Thomas (Non-Zone Lobsterman), Jim Henderson (Zone G), Peter McAleney (Western Dealer Member) and Dana Rice (Eastern Dealer). Council members not present included: Ted Hoskins (General Public Member), Jeff Putnam (Zone F), and Cappy Sargent (Non-Zone Lobsterman). Commissioner George Lapointe, Deputy Commissioner David Etnier, Colonel Joe Fessenden, Deirdre Gilbert, Sarah Cotnoir, Kathleen Reardon, Carl Wilson, Melissa Smith and Donna Hall of the Department of Marine Resources were also present. Others present were: Patrice McCarron, Steve Brooks, Steve Train, Ryan Post, Donnie Young, David Black, Wayne Canning, Jason Young, Dan Staples, Dana Dow, Mike Dassatt, Sheila Dassatt, John Coffin, Meredith Mendelson, Gina LeDuc-Kunty and Senator Dennis Damon.
The meeting convened at 1:10 p.m.
1. Welcome and Review of Agenda
2. Approval of Minutes (October 27, 2008)
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Carter) To accept the minutes of the October 27, 2008 meeting as written. Unanimous.
3. New Business
a. Tiered License System Report from Sub-Committee
The Lobster Advisory Council Chairman Bob Baines reported that the Sub-Committee on developing a Tiered License System met on November 3rd. Bob said the meeting was very long but a worthwhile meeting. They invited Maine Revenue Services to the first meeting to answer related questions in regards to Schedule C and tax information. Bob said the short answer is it would take a huge amount of manpower for MRS to provide the Department of Marine Resources with tax information.
Discussion began with Elliott Thomas asking if the LAC wanted to discuss having a 2-year freeze on tags and leave the entry process alone until we can come up with a comprehensive plan. Gerry Cushman said Zone D would support a freeze only if it was across the board. Patrice McCarron asked what the goal of the freeze is.
Bob said the purpose of the freeze would be to keep fishermen from buying more tags while we are working on a plan and if we don’t do a freeze the potential is for more people to purchase more tags and put more traps in the water; the goal would be to protect all fishermen and have it proportional. Jon Carter said we need to leave the entry program alone because those people have waited.
Gerry said it is unfair to stop a man at 300 and not be able to build up. Larry Knapp said the exit entry ratio is either working or it is not; this may create more problems and trying to implement it will be problematic. Jon said what happens if we get a reduction from the whale people; all of a sudden people at the top would be taking a big hit.
Bob said he would like the Lobster Advisory Council to review and discuss the goals of developing a tiered lobster license on the handout in front of them that would:
• Assist with maintaining the traditional structure of Maine’s lobster industry (both full-time and part-time components)
• Ensure that any future trap reductions are shared proportionally by full-time and part-time fishermen
• Move toward an overall trap reduction from current sales (~3.2 million tags) to 30% of 1997 levels (~1.8 million tags)
Deputy Commissioner David Etnier explained the handout and said that the DMR staff had come up with this after suggestions from the sub-committee to help show some of the ideas that have been discussed. David pointed out some of the problems with each different tier and talked about movement within the tiers and that there are no restrictions with moving down. The Deputy also pointed out that the DMR would need additional resources to handle this type of licensing.
Dana Rice said this is a very good discussion but everyone is assuming that we are going to take a 50% reduction; is that why we are responding, are we jumping through hoops that we don’t need to jump through. Bob said I personally think we are going to get a reduction from the whale rules. Dana said this makes me nervous to do something this big and dramatic on an assumption. Elliott Thomas said that some fishermen say the general goal is to protect the full-timers while taking traps out of the water; we’re shooting for a whole lot of goals and we don’t all see things the same way.
Commissioner George Lapointe said the sustainability of the lobster fishery is the goal. I do not think we are jumping the gun. D. Etnier proved to me from a DVD from back in the 50’s that we have been having these same discussions since then. If something is moved forward to the Marine Resource Committee the fairness to all participants has to be looked at.
Larry said I wonder if we should keep this in our toolbox and see how some of the things we have in place are working and hopefully maybe not have to use this at all. Patrice said I concur with Elliott; if you’re trying to maintain the structure in the long run it will try to help us tease out. John Drouin said with what Patrice and Larry are saying; with the reduction that we are doing we have a program in place already to reduce traps. Gerry said if you allow kids to keep coming in you will never see trap numbers go down. John said then why do we let 70 year olds in get in, but yet you back the young guy. Gerry said of course I do, kids need to go to college; we are just making it now and some guys will have to go out to get other jobs as it is.
Sarah Cotnoir said there are two separate conversations going on here; the exit ratio is different from the whale rules. Carl Wilson said the tiered license thing threads the middle and Bob is talking about the goal; if a reduction is done you want to see it done proportionally and it sets you up for future. George said there is no guarantee because it has to go before the Legislature. Bob stated; before when it went to the Legislature all we got was a reduction.
Steve Train said I respectfully disagree with John and Larry; what we are doing is not working, we try to come up with a plan that won’t affect us; get the other guy not me; we are trying to protect the resource. Larry said if what you are saying is true; the entry system is broken. Gerry said in Port Clyde alone there are thousands of tags sitting around in drawers. Bob said can we discuss this and see if this is the goal of what we are trying to move toward. Patrice said I think the 30% is a short term goal; if we meet that I think this is misleading.
Bob said this is where I think it will take us; not why we’d be moving toward a tiered license system.
Carl said right now the ability for people to move up from within is already there and if everyone did that 250,000 more tags could come in. Jon said the first part of the goal is to maintain traditional structure; you have to let young people come in. Bob said getting back to the bullets does everyone agree? Dana said with the1st one you are changing the traditional structure. I think #2 is what you’re trying to get to; you are not going to maintain the structure if you go forward with this. George said since I’ve been here we’ve made hundred’s of changes; some people say keep status quo the same, others say you have to make some fundamental decisions. Gerry said I agree with #2. Elliott said I agree with 1 and 2. Bob said the second bullet is what we are trying to do. Jon said I think we are trying to move toward an overall trap reduction and I think we’re striving for all 3.
John said we haven’t defined the full/part time lobstermen yet. Larry said why don’t we offer the zones that are in favor of it to pilot it. George said biologically we need to look at it statewide. Dan Staples said it is a statewide thing and it needs to be looked at that way; # 2 is the way I’d want to go; goal # 3 is not good. Gerry said before I want to tackle a tiered license system I would want to talk about a freeze. Jim Henderson asked can the Department of Marine Resources do this. George said it would take extra resources; it would require more tracking than we’ve ever done. Bob said before we move on we have to agree, where are we on this, who opposes the 1st bullet? Dan MacDonald said #1 does not fit in with what you’re trying to do. Bob asked does everyone agree that #2 is what we are trying to do.
D. Etnier said this was put together over the weekend by staff and I questioned it myself; we need to maintain some kind of structure of the lobster fishery. George said if #2 is what you want to take to the Legislature it is the Constitutional process to do that, to ensure that those who have maintained their status in the fishery continue to have that right. Gerry Cushman and Jon Carter said they like all 3. Elliott said I agree with Patrice about the percentage. Bob said if we strike the numbers from # 3 will that work? George said I think it should say a significant reduction. Larry asked do you know how much more this will cost the fishermen. Bob said if we continue to move forward we have time to work out all of these issues. Steve Train asked could the word proportional hurt us full time fishermen; it is a very iffy thing. Patrice said in concept it could work, everyone agrees with the concept; the devil is in the details. David said you are the council and I’d like to let you move forward. Thinking strongly, we can word smith the heck out of this; we can work out something very pretty and supported by the MRC and the community. Elliott asked are we going to stop at the tiered license system or are we going to go forward with a comprehensive plan.
MOTION: (J. Carter and E. Thomas) To put a two year trap tag freeze in place, exempting the people in the entry program on the waiting list. 2 in favor, 8 opposed
Council Member Dana Rice announced to the Lobster Advisory Council that he has to leave to go to another meeting.
Discussion on the motion began with Gerry Cushman saying that Zone D will not support it. John said last time we voted on a trap tag freeze we voted it down; every time you tinker with this system you wind up with more entry. Gerry said there are no guarantee’s, this fishery cannot get any worse; we may all be at the 300 when it’s all said and done, we could all be looking at a major reduction.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Henderson) To freeze trap tags across the board for two years using November 17, 2008 as a control date. 4 in favor, 5 opposed
Discussion began with Jon Carter stating that the State has really never done things with a control date; it could still allow trap build up. Gerry asked when the freeze would be in effect if it went through in 2010; if it goes through everyone would have to go back to this date. Bob said with a control date people would be on notice. Deirdre Gilbert explained that if a freeze were to go through with a 2008 control date, the DMR’s position would be to exempt students eligible for a license in 2009. Those people would be getting licenses with no tags and we would waive the license fee. George said I don’t think it does anything but put a stake in the sand on this date; for future management clearly in the context of a freeze. We did this with the scallop bill and it changed a few times.
Dana Dow said the date will get changed to the day the MRC votes to send it to the Legislature. I have my own perspective on this issue; reduce the number of tags that get issued over a 10 year period and the number still will be going down no matter what number you pick the economy will take care of itself; it will free up tags for sons and daughter’s.
MOTION: (E. Thomas and J. Carter) To use the control date of November 17, 2008 for any future trap tag freeze. 4 in favor, 5 opposed
Donnie Young said this will increase effort. Gerry asked what is the difference in your motion with a control date. Bob said it is simpler. John asked why don’t we work on what we have instead of trying to develop more.
Dan Staples said what I was told was the legislature said they would accept a freeze across the board allowing students to come in; a freeze across the board is the best. Gerry said I’m not about kids not getting in; I am a 5 generation fishermen. Bob said the purpose of a freeze is so people don’t build up. Steve Train said the reality is with the Legislature; after they listen to other people - you will get something. Sarah asked does it matter how many people are building here. Bob said with what I have here in front of me we have 2700 people that could be building. Elliott asked how many people in the state have under 300 tags. Bob said approximately 300 people. Elliott said so those people could build up. Gerry said so the freeze accomplishes nothing. Bob said anyone that has less than the maximum can build; I support a freeze across the board - it’s all or nothing.
b. Continued Discussion on Comprehensive Effort Reduction Plan
Commissioner Lapointe said my suggestion would be to come up with concerns and take them to staff to come back with suggestions. David Etnier said the Lobster Advisory Council has a sub-committee to re-fine the tiered license documents recognizing that this will not go before the Legislature until 2010; this sort of thing could trigger a flurry of activity. Bob asked do we want to work on this or have the sub-committee work on this. John said I thought a sub-committee is what we wanted to do. The sub-committee will continue to meet along with staff from the DMR and report back to the Lobster Advisory Council.
4. DMR Updates
a. Budget, Curtailment and Consolidation
Commissioner Lapointe said the Department of Marine Resources has been asked to cut 10% from our budget; the reduction starts next July. Because this cut needs to come from the General Fund portion of the Department’s budget, we proposed to the Governor’s office eliminating 3 Marine Patrol Officers, and cutting the Shellfish Program. As an alternative to eliminating these positions, we also put forward a license increase of 35% but the Governor said it was too high; we came back with a 25% increase, but no feedback yet. If we take the full amount of funding that needs to be cut out of Marine Patrol alone, we will affect every fishery significantly. After we submitted the proposal for the budget that begins in July, we were then told $150 million has to be cut out of the State budget for the current year; our portion is somewhere around $543K and I am almost certain we will have to cut another 5%. The 10/11 budget is impacting every agency with the declining economy. These are the most serious budget problems we’ve had; we will have to go through the appropriations process to see what the end result will be.
Patrice asked where is the 5% coming from. George said from vacancies; we are not going to fill them. Marine Patrol Officers’ miles have been cut by 20% and there are other smaller things we are doing. Gerry asked if the Feds help with Marine Patrol. George said we receive 10 million in dedicated funds and federal grants and without them we’d be toast. David said we receive Joint Enforcement Assistance and Federal grants, but a lot of DMR’s General Fund funding goes into Marine Patrol. Elliott asked with additional cuts that the Governor is requiring will he look at the 35% increase. George said the Governor directed us to go with a smaller increase; we are reducing, he asked us to look at it again. We have to be serious about every line item in the budget. Bob asked will that shut down the shellfish industry. Gerry asked if there is anymore grant money. George said with borrowing a trillion this year; I am not hopeful to grant our way out of this and we can’t fund positions on grant money. Gerry asked can you ask for private money; they helped Port Clyde draggers a lot. George said you can but they typically don’t get involved in long term.
Commissioner Lapointe gave the Lobster Advisory Council an update on the Natural Resource Task Force. He said that Sen. Dennis Damon, Patrice McCarron from the Maine Lobstermen’s Association as well as himself are on the task force. The Governor’s Office has proposed to consolidate the Department of Marine Resources and the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife. We have been working on a proposal to bring back to the task force this week that shows organizational charts which is comprised of 5 Bureaus; I will be happy to send it out to folks if you want to take a look at it.
Bob Baines asked if it will save money. George said it does not save money but when the budget comes around it is a real concern if it shows $200-$300K with 4-5 positions eliminated. Our agency started from a commercial background with a lot of stakeholders; their background is a service to the recreational people, it is two different cultures. In my plans I have plugged a person to help with all those cultural issues. Gerry asked what about the recreational saltwater license. George said it will be brought to the Legislature this winter and the proposed is $15.00 for residents and $30.00 for non-residents. Gerry asked what will the funding go toward; can Marine Patrol be funded with it. George said we will work on issues such as: near shore flounder, recreational access, shad runs and things of that nature and Marine Patrol can be funded somewhat with it. David said the way we believe it will work is 90% would be new dedicated projects.
Patrice said there is a lot going on with the task force; I have been 1 of the few functioning people. They want long term efficiencies; Governor is looking for us to buy in before we understand, I am very concerned. Elliott said Maine has you George sitting on some National committee’s; it would be a shame to lose that. George said if you take 2 busy people and mash them in to 1; they will have the same concerns. Patrice said we are up against tough times, if we end up with George that’s great but I’m worried about it. George said you should worry about; I am certain that this will go forward to the Legislature.
George said the newly appointed Lobster Task Force will be setting up their first meeting. We have talked with the Research, Education & Development Board and they allocated up to $150 K to fund a consultant to conduct some research and analysis and make recommendations for the fishery. The task force will need to report back the middle of April. With the number of people on the task force we need to be sure to keep the pace going; I will be talking with the Chairman soon with some ideas.
Patrice said with the Northern Right Whale there are 2 issues: Jeffery Ledge-emerging right whale critical habitat and the concept of rope less fishing - not an idea that is loosing momentum. The positive news is with whale species; calving intervals have gone down - species moving in a positive direction. Maine lobster gear is on whales; we cannot make science go away and DAM’s are back.
The date for the next Lobster Advisory Council meeting is to be determined.
MOTION: (J. Henderson and G. Cushman) To adjourn. Unanimous.
The meeting adjourned at 4:30 pm.
