Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Department of Human Services
442 Civic Center Drive, Augusta
March 19, 2008 4:00 pm
A meeting of the Department of Marine Resources’ Lobster Advisory Council (Council) was held on this date at the Natural Resources Service Center, 6 Beech Street, Hallowell, Maine. Council members attending this meeting included: Chair Bob Baines (Non-Zone Lobsterman), John Drouin (Zone A), Jon Carter (Zone B), Dan MacDonald (Zone C), Ted Hoskins (General Public Member), Gerry Cushman (Zone D), Dana Rice, (Eastern Dealer), Larry Knapp (Zone E), Elliott Thomas (Zone F), Jim Henderson (Zone G), and Peter McAleney (Western Dealer Member). Council members not present included: Dana McIntire (Non-Zone Lobsterman) and Cappy Sargent (Non-Zone Lobsterman). Commissioner George Lapointe, Deirdre Gilbert, Sarah Cotnoir, Colonel Joe Fessenden, Carl Wilson, Melissa Smith and Donna Hall of the Department of Marine Resources were also present. Others present were: David Cousens, Patrice McCarron, Ted Bear, Lyman Kennedy, Jeff Putnam, Steve Robbins, Sheila Dassatt, Mike Dassatt, Joseph Bates, Bill Doane, Howard Gray, Keith Flett, Representative Bruce MacDonald and Dane Somers from the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.
The meeting convened at 4:15 p.m.
1. Welcome and Review of Agenda
2. Approval of Minutes (November 28, 2007)
MOTION: (J. Carter and E. Thomas) To accept the minutes of the November 28, 2007 meeting as written. Unanimous.
3. New Business
a. Whale Update – Commissioner Lapointe
Commissioner Lapointe told the Lobster Advisory Council that Maine’s Low-Profile Groundline Area Proposal has been submitted to the Atlantic Large Whale Take Reduction Team for peer review. The Commissioner said he had heard second hand that the proposal had been rejected but he said we will have to wait and see what happens when the TRT meets in Baltimore, MD in late April or early May.
b. Maine Lobster Promotion Council Nominations
Chair Bob Baines told the LAC that in their packets they would see two nomination letters from the Maine Lobster Promotion Council and asked the council to look over the recommendations of the MLPC so the LAC could decide what they want to do.
MOTION: (T. Hoskins and E. Thomas) To accept the recommendations of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council nominations of Nick Lemieux, Harvester from Cutler and Clive Farrin, Harvester from Boothbay. Unanimous.
c. Nominating Committee for the Election of Officers
Bob Baines asked the Lobster Advisory Council members for volunteers to sit on a nominating committee for election of offices for the LAC. Elliott Thomas and Jon Carter agreed to be on the committee and will meet after the meeting to talk about recommendations.
c. Discussion on Effort Reduction
George told the Lobster Advisory Council members that the Department of Maine Resources staff had heard much discussion around the State about reducing trap numbers, people have talked about 400/600 traps. Fishermen say their overhead is too high and some say they could earn as much with ½ the number of traps. George said that many people have many different ideas and he thinks the LAC should have the discussion about 300/400/500 traps.
Larry Knapp said we are unlike Monhegan; we have students and they only have 14 guys. George said if we were to do something like reduce effort and not shift effort, we can’t treat students and apprentices differently; the discussion should be to freeze tags where they are right now. Larry said we have to limit the trap limit or we’ll get nothing. George said without the trap limit we would be in a lot worse mess than we are. Bob Baines said before we talk about trap reduction we need to freeze effort where it is and get that system working.
John Drouin said when you talk about trap reduction; each zone has the ability to reduce traps; why do you want to reduce traps. John stated people are expecting it because of whales and other issues. Bob said we can’t just re-arrange what we have now and right now if we try to do a trap reduction the industry won’t support it. We need to protect the full time people; we need to have that come first. Larry said it seems to me when we first started we didn’t do it that way, we have a wharf owner right here ask him what would happen if wharf’s start folding, there would be a huge docking problem and we wouldn’t be able to unload our lobsters.
Sarah Cotnoir said that this is a preliminary discussion and economics have heightened these discussions. Carl Wilson said that Larry makes a good point and while harvesting lobsters fishermen need to think about trying to do things more efficiently and have shorter soak times. Jon Carter said he does not think we should be setting up trap limits based on economics. I think we should let fishermen worry about that, if we’re talking about effort with ASMFC or whale issue’s that’s another thing; if I go under that’s my fault.
J. Drouin said it’s too bad we have to try to legislate common sense, I agree with Jon. With what Carl has said there are big differences along the coast and after he does more studies then see if it’s going to work, there are things that could be done, we have the option in each zone to reduce traps. Can DMR send out a survey to find out how fishermen feel because some people will not speak up and say how they feel.
Pete McAleney said I am not for trap limits; I am for the full time guy. I think there should be no fishing allowed after 3:00 pm for full timers, part timers too bad. Pete said that at the Boston Seafood Show that was no representatives there for fishermen and no one from Augusta and that is not a good thing.
Carl Wilson said that things have changed in the last 40 years and now that these changes are showing, it shows signs that the industry is stressed. I have a concern that the continued excessive pressure will have a negative impact on the resource. 60,000,000 pounds is the exception. Jon stated that Carl said years ago that the industry was in a decline. We had a big boom, if we lose people then so be it, there are other industries that will go down the tubes as well. It’s not the American way to bring people down so everyone can make the same amount of money.
George said one thing you need to pay attention to is there is a high amount of effort on a declining fishery. Jon said years ago we used to have to do other things. Gerry Cushman said being a ground fisherman I am seeing the lobster fishery declining. I see effort 2-3 miles out, we are pounding the living crap out of lobstering, and all ground fishermen went out of state so they could do it. John said we are headed down this road anyway; we should not do it for economics. I am more concerned with the supply of herring; people down my way are being proactive; looking for a closed season, fish when lobsters come out of the rock. Ted Hoskins said he was glad to hear these discussions and that we need to push to make sense for the better of the resource.
Elliott said there is value in looking at this then the FEDS won’t come in and make us do it. Last week at the zone council meeting I brought up a control date and it met a lot of resistance. Larry said a lot of what he has heard are zone issues and can be controlled by each zone. Last summer we were hauling 2-3 days per week; Zone E is now almost completely part-timers. Gerry asked Larry how many traps he fished before he went to 600 traps; we were building up less; would putting a number on it stop the leak in the boat 1st.
Bob said we have to stop the leak 1st, we have bait problems and the ASMFC will be requiring us to do things and those things will force us to reduce traps, are we going to do something 1st? Dana Rice said the work that has been done on Monhegan is very interesting, it shows you can catch as much with less traps; cutting the number of traps won’t cut the number of lobsters that are caught. Carl said right now it’s a double edged sword, with fishing mortality. 3 ½ million traps in the water and we might go to 4 million we still haven’t done anything; we’ve had 20 years of growth. Dana said these are conversations we need to have, are we talking about gear reduction or effort reduction; with traps everyone is going to share the burden. Dana said he would like to see the work Carl has done with Monhegan done on a larger area. Ted Bear said we have many latent traps that are not being used; we need to find out where they are and take them out of the equations, what good is that. Jon said we would have to go to tags to really reduce anything. Elliott asked if we think by the end of the year with the logbook results will we have a better feel for those numbers. Carl said we hope to get a representative look at things. Elliott asked if you could narrow it down from that. Carl said that 100% reporting that other states do would be better; we would like to have seen 30% for better numbers. Mike Dassatt said if we go to 100% reporting we would know better, if you put a restriction on traps with students coming in you’ll have a major loop-hole closed. Mike said he would like to see 100% reporting to give us a better idea to see the poundage being caught.
David Cousens said in the big picture this industry is in trouble we need to go green and get a certified sustainable fishery. If we do not get certified a lot of our big markets will refuse to take our product. If you want to look at the economics or not the economics are bad; we used to get 100 lbs per trap, now 30 lbs per trap, you’d have to go 400 or less to make a change and it’s the only thing you can to increase profit margins. By taking traps out of the water, good fishermen will do better, I just think, you don’t want to bring the whale thing in, I will guarantee that whales will come in to this, traps will be reduced by the conservation groups and you won’t have a legal leg to stand on, my advice would be for you to do it and not let the feds or someone else do it for you.
Gerry asked if we can send out a survey to see how the fishermen feel. Ted said it would be the right way to go but we still won’t get them in to the discussion. Larry said by dropping the trap limit and leaving entry the way it is you gained nothing; trap limits when they are imposed may work, how about 10%. Bob asked what about the people that are fishing than 600 or 800 traps. Larry said it is a controlled entry thing, like we do in harbors right now and it will work better than what we have right now. Dana said this is great conversation but I disagree with what David Cousens said about going green; that statement scares me. Patrice McCarron asked if it is now a zone option to have a student waiting list.
Elliott said if we do send the survey out, needs to be well written and instructions as well. Larry said it is important for zones to come up to speed, we should see a slight reduction if 25 people went out. John said we are looking at tags out now. Bob said we should have a review committee to evaluate what we want to ask on the survey. George said that Bob Bayer has agreed to do a survey. Gerry said that was great but he would like to have a board review it first. Bob said it is important to say that the LAC recommended that the survey be mailed. Ted said it is important for the zone council members to get the word out to fishermen that the survey is coming. Zone F fisherman Jeff Putnam said the NMFS website fish watch states that the lobster fishery is not overfished and there will be a decline of traps in the water because of the new tags out/tags in rule change.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Drouin) To send out a survey to fishermen to ask if they would support a trap reduction. Unanimous.
A sub-committee was formed to draft the survey and the members are: John Drouin, Jon Carter, Bob Baines, Jim Henderson, Larry Knapp, Elliott Thomas and Sarah Cotnoir.
d. Trap Tag Exit Ratio
Sarah said that zones are now meeting to discuss sending out a limited entry survey to all commercial fishermen in each of the zones that have limited entry. The new law will be applying the aggregate number of tags leaving the fishery to determine the number of fishermen entering the fishery. It changes the method for calculating a zone's exit-to-entry ratio from lobster licenses not renewed to trap tags retired in the previous year. If a zone chooses they can have a separate waiting list for students.
e. Lower of Limit of Licenses
Questions have been asked from some of the zones about the rule on lower of limit of licenses. The rule states in no event shall the number of Class I, II and III lobster and crab licenses in a limited-entry zone be reduced by more than 30% of the number of such licenses in that zone as of December 31, 1997. If this lower limit is reached, the exit ratio shall thereafter be one new license awarded for every one license not renewed.
Bob asked if there is any zone that is close to the 30%. John said that Zone F is close and will be there in about 2 years. George stated that what the rule says now talks about licenses and with the new law we are switching to tags out. Elliott said from a Zone F standpoint if we are going to be switching to tags this may take care of itself in the next couple of years. John stated that he didn’t think we should be looking at this because we aren’t even there yet. George said he didn’t think asking the question is a bad thing; in 1997 it was the best decision that we could make then. Howard Gray said in 1997 the State made a promise and the worse thing that could happen is that one person would go out and one would get in. Ted Bear asked if this is a law or a rule. George said it is a rule and if it is needed I can propose a change to the DMR Advisory Council and they can vote on it.
Jon said that Zone B needs to have a meeting and said this issue should be brought to each zone and asked if the DMR could provide a worksheet to explain it better. Elliott said if Zone F is the closest we need to look at it before we get there. Carl said the currency has changed; licenses are still being issued when enough tags leave. Bob said this is a confusing issue and he thinks this should be brought back to the next LAC meeting and have DMR explain it better. Gerry agreed and said this should be tabled until the next meeting.
f. Double Tagging
Bob said we sent this issue to the DMR Advisory Council for review. Dana said this is correct and that the Advisory Council did not want to go forward without a recommendation from the lobster industry or the Lobster Advisory Council. Elliott said this issue was talked about at his zone council meeting last week. Sarah said it is her understanding that the DMR needs to take the double tagging issue to all the zones and see how fishermen feel about it. Jon said he knows of people in his zone that want to talk about it. John said you just need to clarify the 51/49 rule about fishing over the line. Jim Henderson said we have discussed it in our zone and we’re all in favor of it. Jeff Putnam said it is not a good thing if you have to shift traps around; this seems like a lot of red tape going back and forth from the zones to the LAC.
George asked the council how many want our law enforced; if you want limited entry by zone and you want it enforced then this something that will work. Larry said he didn’t understand what this real issue is. George said that double tagging was put in to place in Zones F and G because there was evidence that people from Zone F were fishing nearly all their traps over the line. Colonel Joe Fessenden said if you think about Zone C a fisherman could get a Zone C license and fish 100% of his traps in Zone B or D. We have had two cases of Zone F fishermen with all of their traps in Zone G, until double tagging we couldn’t enforce it. Elliott asked how many Zone G fishermen are in Zone F. Joe said if we find that they are we will take the same action in Zone G. Larry said if we all followed the same rule each zone would have an agreement. Elliott said he thinks the issue should be tabled until each zone has had the chance to comment. Bob agreed that the double tagging issue should be tabled until the next meeting.
g. Seed Fund Update
Deirdre Gilbert said has been a problem in the past couple of years with the purchase of seed lobsters. The allocation is $25,000, but the actual cost is about $45,000 that we have to pay pound owners for the lobsters. This past year we had to take almost $20,000 from the remaining balance in the Fund, and from the money that was set aside for Carl’s peer review of the lobster science program because the price of the seed lobsters has nearly doubled. Bob asked where the money came from. Jon asked what are we paying the pounds. Deirdre explained that it is based on a formula. Jon said it seems like in the past few years the money owed has increased. Dana said he understands what Jon is saying; I’ve been the only one in the past to sell lobsters and I put in a bid of what I can sell them for.
Deirdre stated that the price has been high on average and with the way the formula works 3 years ago we were paying over $3.00 a pound and last year we paid over $5.00 a pound. Dana said you need to remember that last March lobster was $11.00 per pound and that changes the formula and you are purchasing at different times of the year. Elliott said he can see how that could change the average.
John asked when we got away from each zone voting on what we want to do with seed lobster fund money. Jim said we talked about it in our zone and we said we wanted to buy as many egged out lobsters as possible. Sarah said we will send out a memo to all zones to vote on their allocation and then we will discuss at the next LAC meeting.
MOTION: (D. Rice and G. Cushman) To take the seed fund money and pay back Carl’s program. Unanimous.
h. 2000 lb Limit on Seed Lobsters
Dana Rice opened the discussion proposing to adjust the 2,000 lb limit on seed lobsters. Dana said if you have a pound that holds 200,000 pounds, 2,000 pounds is only 1%; I would like to make a motion to remove the 2000lb cap. Jon said when we set this up everyone thought we were doing the right thing. Joe said why we started looking at this was because of one company that owned several pounds. Carl said Deirdre brings the seed fund issue forward because it’s a price issue not a poundage issue.
Jon said he did not disagree with Dana but believes that those lobsters need to be returned to the wild. John said he was not prepared to vote on this without more information; Zone A has always asked to purchase and liberate and I would like to see more of that type of lobster going back in to the water.
MOTION: (D. Rice and T. Hoskins) To remove the 2000 lb cap on seed lobsters. 6 in Favor, 2 Opposed, 2 Abstained.
i. Owner Operator Provision
The Lobster Advisory Council discussed the Owner-Operator provision in Marine Resources Law. Bob said we could have provision that the owner is the only one allowed to operate the boat. Mike Dassatt said my license has my boat registration and name on it; the only time my boat should be engaged in fishing is when I am at the helm of that boat, if you want to take another person with you that is fine but only the owner should be operating. Dan said there are huge differences between owner and operator’s. Larry said it doesn’t increase the scope of the license; it’s just the government getting in to someone’s pocket. John stated that there are too many laws that go along with it.
Bob said what bothers him is that they go on that boat just like it’s their own boat and use it as their own; no easy answer, but I think it’s something we need to keep our eye on. Ted said he has seen it go from 1 boat to 6 boats in his area. Dana said this is just something where somebody doesn’t like somebody; it’s different from using a sternman to do the fishing. Ted said it’s very difficult to get there with that unless you have 100% reporting.
Bill Doane said he thought years ago the DMR brought something forward to public hearing but it didn’t go forward. Joe said he didn’t recall but it may have been when the owner-operator law went in to effect; there are a lot of ramifications with this issue. Larry asked wouldn’t this be an enforcement nightmare. Ted said you could be sitting and watching a guy all day long. John asked where the Marine Patrol would get this information about the fishermen. Ted Bear said from other fishermen.
4. Old Business
5. Reports and Updates
a. DMR Updates
o Rulemaking
Harvester reporting started in January with 10% of lobstermen receiving logbooks and information about reporting. Zone G supported the apprentice requirement to require a sponsor of an apprentice to have held a Class I, II or III lobster and crab fishing license for at least 5 years and require that an apprentice may enter Zone G only if the apprentice apprenticed in Zone G. Zone C has had three district meetings on limited entry and met in January and voted not to close their zone. Zones are meeting to talk about their new exit ratio using tag calculations and sending out surveys to their zones.
The Area 1 Lobster Conservation Management Team meeting is March 25th and one of the topics of discussion will be trap transferability and Toni Kearns from the ASMFC will be there to talk about Draft Addendum XII to the Interstate Management Plan for American Lobster. There are 4 public hearings scheduled in Maine in early April on Addendum XII.
The Lobstermen’s Town meeting will be held in Portland at the Clarion Hotel on April 4 – 5.
Jon Carter asked Carl if he had any reports from the shrimper’s this winter as far as what they have been seeing in their nets; I’ve been told that nets have been full of lobsters but they have all been small sized.
Carl said the last seven years have been “above average” for lobster settlement. In theory these strong year classes should show up as a subsequent increase in juvenile lobsters and eventually the fishery. Our juvenile surveys are not picking up the pulse of lobsters that we would expect based solely on settlement. The trawl survey suffers from industry cooperation in removing traps from inshore tows, sea sampling only measures vented traps and the ventless trap surveys do not have a long time series to compare to. It is entirely possible that the pulse is missed because of survey problems mentioned above, or that the environment is changing (disease, predators?) and may not be as favorable to lobster survival.
o Consolidation Update
This has changed a little since the last LAC meeting; now the language includes 5 agencies together including the Department of Environmental Protection and to look at efficiencies (rather than mandating a reduction of agencies). It does not have a pre-determined outcome, and a task force will be set up of 25 stakeholders.
o Patrol Update
Colonel Fessenden said that wet storage continues to be an issue and Marine Patrol is trying to get people to comply; we may be looking at a closed season as this is a tough issue to enforce. The communication has improved between fishermen but we have had some gear conflict problems with shrimp draggers.
Marine Patrol recently had a conviction in a major trap molesting case with 2 men from York County. The pair received several thousand dollars of fines, three-year loss of license, on year probation, $35,000. in restitution and 96 hours of community service. The original complaints came in from several lobster fishermen and the complaints involved the cutting of hundreds of lobster traps. The investigation was led by MPO Daryen Granata who did an excellent job with this case.
We are seeing a trend with illegal (short) lobster violations and it may be a sign of the tough economic times. The numbers continue to go up with these types of cases all over the coast. The Commissioner has been and will continue to suspending licenses for these violations. Bob said he had a call from fisherman asking what can be done about having stiffer fines for lobster violations and asked the LAC to discuss the issue at the next meeting.
The Colonel reminded fishermen to get their 2008 trap tags ordered and on their traps by the June 1st deadline as there will be no exceptions or grace period approved by the Bureau of Marine Patrol for the 2008 season. Joe said that tag orders are taking 5-6 weeks to arrive once they are ordered.
o Commercial Fishing Safety Council (CFSC) Update
Bob Baines said the CFSC met in February and they are proposing to the Commissioner a law change that requires Sea Urchin Divers and Tender’s to have a current CPR certification at the time of license renewal.
o Maine’s Working Waterfront Tax Law (Current Use Taxation)
Patrice McCarron reminded the Lobster Advisory Council that next week there is a public hearing before the Taxation Committee on Maine's Working Waterfront Tax Law (Current Use Taxation). Patrice encouraged fishermen to attend and take the opportunity for people to express thoughts, impressions, concerns, gratitude, etc with regard to the program.
b. Zone/Industry Issues – Summaries
Zone A: We have gray zone issues like the message I sent on about the guy who got his thumb ripped off when he got tangled up in gear.
Zone B: No Zone B meeting since the last LAC.
Zone C: We had a meeting on January 29th and voted 6 to 4 not to move forward with limited entry.
Zone D: Had a meeting last night and voted to go with 5:1 for our tag exit ratio.
Zone E: No meeting lately, stripers are an issue; they are going all the way to Alna to feed.
Zone F: Meeting last week, we voted to send out the limited entry survey and had discussions on double tagging and the three mile limit.
Zone G: We met on Monday and voted to use 5:1 as an exit ratio on tags, had a 40% return on the survey, talked about double tagging and want to keep it.
6. Set Next Meeting Date and Agenda
The date for the next Lobster Advisory Council meeting will be April 16th.
MOTION: (J. Carter and G. Cushman) To adjourn. Unanimous.
The meeting adjourned at 8:15 pm.
