Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Natural Resources Service Center 6 Beech Street, Hallowell
October 2, 2008 –5:00 PM
Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Natural Resources Service Center
6 Beech Street, Hallowell
October 2, 2008 5:00 pm
A meeting of the Department of Marine Resources’ Lobster Advisory Council (Council) was held on this date at the Natural Resources Service Center, Hallowell. Council members attending this meeting included: Chair Bob Baines (Non-Zone Lobsterman), John Drouin (Zone A), Dan MacDonald (Zone C), Ted Hoskins (General Public Member), Gerry Cushman (Zone D), Larry Knapp (Zone E) Jeff Putnam (Zone F), Elliott Thomas (Non-Zone Lobsterman), Jim Henderson (Zone G), and Jon Carter (Zone B). Council members not present included: Peter McAleney (Western Dealer Member), and Cappy Sargent (Non-Zone Lobsterman). Commissioner George Lapointe, Deputy Commissioner David Etnier, Colonel Joe Fessenden, Deirdre Gilbert, Kathleen Reardon, Carl Wilson, Melissa Smith and Donna Hall of the Department of Marine Resources were also present. Others present were: Patrice McCarron, Steve Brooks, Bill Doane, Henry Nhetham, Matthew Nixon, Annie Tselikis, John Coffin, John Hathaway and Dan Somers of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.
The meeting convened at 5:10 p.m.
1. Welcome and Review of Agenda
2. Approval of Minutes (August 27, 2008)
MOTION: (T. Hoskins and D. MacDonald) To accept the minutes of the August 27, 2008 meeting as written. Unanimous.
3. New Business
a. MSC Update
Commissioner George Lapointe told the Lobster Advisory Council that since they last met in August the Governor’s Working Group that is investigating Marine Stewardship Council certification for the lobster industry has had three public meetings held around the state during the month of September to discuss the pre-assessment and hear questions and concerns from Maine lobstermen. The meetings were held in Rockland, Ellsworth and Portland. The Commissioner said the MSC working group has completed a pre-assessment and that John Hathaway is here to give you an update on what we know so far.
John Hathaway said that at the three public meetings held around the State the attendance was low, however we got a lot of things out on the table and people came forward with some good suggestions. Some of the concerns raised included the budget and how the money would be raised to move forward. John said folks overall seemed to support moving ahead with the full assessment; we had promised we would not move forward beyond the pre-assessment if we had concerns that it would do anything to hurt Maine lobster. We made the pre-assessment public and the next step will be to see if we want to go into full assessment; we need to raise the money and find out what the budget will be.
George said we need to decide what the best structure for the Client will be – when a contract for a full assessment is requested there has to be a Client in order to move forward. In other words someone in charge of working with the assessor and negotiating and agreeing to meet the conditions that are set; we have to resolve it somehow and have a committee of some kind.
J. Hathaway said that it is important that what MSC does is to see if the fishery is sustainable, at the end of the process they may set conditions in order for the fishery to be certified, but there is a negotiation process.. I want to thank, Elliott, Bob and Deirdre; the Working group is meeting soon and will vote on whether to move forward with a full assessment, which will take 12-18 months to complete. John said that up until this point, the fund has been the client; it takes broad support to make this happen. Larry Knapp asked who is raising this money. John said the fund we are talking about was raised by Linda Bean, John Ready and myself; we’ve added people to the committee, and the budget is around $150K raised privately. After we go through full assessment we need to see what the costs to meet the conditions are going to be; the intent is for the annual budget to be raised privately.
Bob Baines said if the well runs dry for funding, the costs could be passed on to the fishermen. Larry said we will all have regulations and hoops to jump through. Bob said before we move forward we need to take a long hard look at this - if the industry shows and says that we are not in favor, are we sure this will go away? J. Hathaway said if there are conditions the Client can’t put in to place, certainly the Department of Marine Resources will have to play a role in to it. Jon Carter asked if the industry doesn’t think this favorable, is this going away? John said the committee can’t enforce it on you, it’s not me that it is going to force it on you, it is important to understand that reporting may come up whether there is MSC or not. Larry asked do you really think these people who are raising this money will want to improve our price. John said I never said I was here to help them; I would be looking for a way to raise the money, what happens if we can’t get certified and we’re done? This is not a fad, it’s a trend; if someone said I like your lobster but you’re not certified, so I can’t buy it what happens? I am trying to look at what the market wants. Larry said this money isn’t going to help us.
Jeff Putnam said one thing that was said at Portland, was that if they come back looking at us, and MSC wants Maine lobster certified; we can negotiate the process. John said right now they sell a ½ million lbs of certified lobster. Jeff said we don’t have to accept their conditions. John said that is negotiable. Patrice McCarron asked is the client the person who brings this to full assessment. John said we have to have a client to get started. Patrice said what matters most is who the client is; if we move forward we need to have some good negotiating going on, could the LAC be part of that? I’m nervous about who is going to be negotiating. John said we will get the conditions and the question will be - do we want to accept them or do we not want to accept; then someone has to enforce and manage those conditions. Patrice said if the industry does not buy in; I’m concerned about the timing. John said if we want to stay ahead of the curve then we want to listen to the marketing message; we have a lot of work to do.
George said we need to decide who the client is going to be. The Governor signed on to this and we’ve had a real erosion of the boat price and to Patrice’s point; the Governor will be concerned that if 2 people think it’s great and the rest do not - then it won’t go anywhere. I am uncomfortable with one group doing the assessment and another group moving forward. I don’t know how you can move forward and not involve the DMR. G. Cushman asked if the LAC can be the client. George said he would say no. Deirdre Gilbert said it may not be legally possible to bind the State by making it part of the client; we would have to commit to meet certain conditions. Annie Tselikis asked what the client looks like in other places. John said with one of the fisheries Clearwater is the client. George said Alaskan salmon is a perfect example that is similar to Maine. John said my opinion is we have a sustainable fishery. Elliott Thomas said it’s like signing a blank check if we agree to move forward without knowing who the client is. Larry said he’d like to have access to a marketing college and see what their assessment would be; all these millions of dollars are not to help us.
Jon Carter said I’ve spoken with people from Area 34; the fishermen are getting pushed to do this and they are uncomfortable with it as well. What happens in 5 years if we don’t have the money is it better to have never gotten in to this, or to fail; getting kicked out would be worse. Dane Somers said I agree with you John Hathaway; move off pause and get started. We don’t know the answers and we will revisit them when we do have answers; we are not getting 100% agreement on this. There are a lot of things we need answers to; do the benefits outweigh the costs? John said without the DMR nothing gets done. George said when they ask questions about biology, etc, who are they going to come to? Carl Wilson said there are practical things that we can look at; it may be interesting to talk to our counterparts in Alaska, they deal with a lot of people. John asked do you think we need to do that before we go in to full assessment. George said I think before full assessment.
b. Stricter Penalties
Deputy Commissioner David Etnier gave the Lobster Advisory Council a handout and explained proposed legislation for stricter penalties for lobster violations including several with mandatory suspensions. David said that the DMR is also going to be crafting language for a bill to go after the loophole in the owner operator law. We will make a clearer definition of “operator”; when you have a lobster license no more than 800 traps on the boat, and the licensee would need to be operating the boat. George said we will still have exceptions for medical, students, etc.
Larry said if a woman has license and she chooses to do this it doesn’t hurt the resource. Bob said it was meant to address the situation where a guy is setting up his sternman. It is having an impact on the resource, because that guy is fishing 1600 traps. Larry asked are we here to decide who makes the profits. Bob said I am here to support true owner-operator. Dan MacDonald said this is backing up the tag limit. Jon said with husband and wife situations; those women wouldn’t be fishing if their husbands didn’t run the boat.
Jim Henderson said in my harbor there is a husband/wife situations where the wife sterns the boat, they have 2 boats and 2 gangs of gear. Colonel Joe Fessenden said with this proposed change, the owner has to be the operator. David said the only person who can operate that boat is whoever is on the license. Jon said I know people that have been caught with fishing their tags and their wife and kids tags; this is a huge improvement over what we’ve had. Gerry said Jon you did a good job on this with the sub-committee, you followed up on what you said; I will support this. Jon said I am very happy with this.
David said the DMR would also be adding language to do violation checks on lobster zone elections before nominees are placed on the ballot; individiuals with violations of lobster laws and regulations would not be eligible to serve on the council. We will be looking at the previous 7 years record. The language would read something like this: An individual who has been convicted of a lobster violation within the previous 7 years is not eligible for election as a council member unless a waiver from this requirement has been granted by the commissioner for good cause as determined by the commissioner in his or her discretion.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and E. Thomas) To support the DMR to move forward with stricter penalties legislation. 9 in favor, 1abstention
c. Discussion on Replacement Tag Process
Commissioner Lapointe explained the new trap tag replacement process and asked the Lobster Advisory Council if anyone had concerns about how this would work. Larry asked if this was to help with effort. George explained that the trap limit is 800 or 600 in Zone E; not 880 or 660 respectively. This is not fixing the effort issue, if there are concerns about how this going to operate we would like your suggestions. Jon asked on # 5, what happens to them after they are signed. George said each fisherman would need to get the form in to the Hallowell office to then obtain their replacement trap tags. Jon said Bar Harbor is a place you will be getting all kinds of calls because of the problems with cruise ships.
Jeff Putnam said Zone F is supportive of this; I to think that if you kept the 10% it would work. David said there is an idea of delaying the issuance until fall. Jim said I’ve lost 100 traps in the spring before. Bill Doane said I am all for having to request for them, but we can lose them any time of year. Jon said a guy could need 80 and as soon as possible. Larry said what this going to do is make people order more next year. J. Fessenden said we will still handle catastrophic loss the same way; overall statewide we have less than a dozen a year, it is rare but you can have a situation where you get cleaned out by ship or trap cutting.
Gerry asked Larry, your trap limit is 600, how often do you take that up with your zone? Larry said I can’t get the support from the zone; the guy that proposed it never fished the 600. Gerry said you could make a proposal to go to 660 and you would still be under what everyone else is doing; you’re asking the Commissioner to not do something about someone breaking the law. Elliott Thomas said how about issuing 20 at a time. Bob asked is this just policy? George answered – yes. Bob said my only comment is it will make more work on local officer. George said -yes it will; Joe has worked with the Lieutenants and they came up with this proposal. Colonel Fessenden said 20 in a strip; a minimum number is a great idea. David said he wanted to mention in the old days officers lugged tags around, but not with this policy; licensing will take care of the issuance of replacement tags.
MOTION: (E. Thomas and J. Henderson)) To support this policy with a minimum of 20 tags at a time. 8 in favor, 2 opposed
d. Review Draft Trap Tag Freeze Language
Commissioner Lapointe asked the Lobster Advisory Council to review the draft trap tag freeze language that he handed out. I want to talk with you about the impact; a real freeze says wherever you are, is where you are. George talked about the control date and gave a scenario; if we were to wait a year from now, is it worth the effort to go after the trap tag freeze, understanding the time. David Etnier said before you take off on that, the time frame that the tags are issued changes the dynamics and there are risks associated with a trap tag freeze bill. There is fear that some of the legislature won’t support it. If the language goes in with a control date people can make compelling arguments to oppose things to the legislature. Some may agree the freeze is a good idea; say they make the freeze happen, but as of a future date, and then everyone goes and buys whatever they can - you could have a couple hundred thousand extra tags if that happened.
Elliott said he feared if we fight this battle and it doesn’t go, it may dilute it and make it difficult to come back in another year. Bob said the real question is that what this accomplishes is a control date; what comes after this is my question. What are we going to try to accomplish if this is put in place? George said the purpose of the freeze was to put an anchor in one part of this. Bob asked the Commissioner - if I remember correctly you said at the last meeting you would not go after latent effort. George said we need to go after the whole bowl of wax. Bob asked then the discussion will include latent effort? George said yes, all things.
Jeff Putnam asked what about the 50,000 trap tag build up, is it a net increase; does the DMR project over the next 10 years, are there any projections? Carl Wilson said the current potential is 4.3 million traps if everyone went up; a 40% build up if you played this out. Jon said with what has gone on this year with economics, I’m seeing it already; with time you will see trap numbers come down. John Drouin said we’ve already got tools in the tool box; enough programs working out there now. I think right now we have other issues that we should be discussing than this; is there a way that we can help our bait issue? Maybe we should look at our options with going fewer days, as Jon said, we have people leaving the fishery as people age.
George said we did this because people around this table said we needed to something and that with the lobster assessment coming, we have too many traps in the water. John said he doesn’t agree with this. Jon Carter said things have changed drastically in just a month – with the price drop; we can’t catch them for what we’re getting paid. The economy will drive a trap reduction, we will be a part-time business; can spend our time doing other things. Bob said in my opinion that’s what we’re doing here with the whale thing; it’s coming, whatever the powers that be make us reduce; if we don’t get this squared away it will be forced upon us and we will be in huge trouble; we need to develop a tired license system. Gerry said to John, I didn’t get a clear picture of where you want to go with this. John said we shouldn’t give up on discussions, I didn’t say we shouldn’t do something; we don’t want to be cut. I used to be in favor of a tired license system but now I’m not; soon we will all be part-timers.
Gerry said when we met last time we voted on this as a group and voted unanimous, I just don’t get a clear picture of what people want. George said I hope I’ve been consistent in saying you need to look at a package deal, we all say we’re serious about effort; until we want to work on the issue and be serious; I’m willing to put everything away. Jim said I still support this, and I’ll bring people here to support this. Jeff said I’m for a truce, but as Bob mentioned we have outside issues and pressures. George said the lobster assessment is coming and we have the whale issues. Ted said this allows us to do the right kind of discussions and work on these issues as a council. Gerry said I’d like to add another tool; do a bill that the Commissioner has the right to freeze tags; this gives us more power as well - through us. Jon said I actually agree with Gerry; I voted for this but I didn’t realize it would take until 2010 to do any changes. There could be huge changes in the industry if this council or the Commissioner had more power. George said I would recommend the Marine Resource Committee come and speak to this to give you another view. Bob said it would be a great thing, but don’t kid yourself if we change it to rule making; will it give it anymore support than it does now; it’s a good idea to get the MRC Chairs to come. Gerry said to have this tool, think about how good it could be.
Bob Baines said let’s discuss this trap tag freeze. John Drouin said he would like to discuss other ways. George said if we don’t come up with a plan than it’s not worth doing. Jon said I think we all had good intentions a month ago, but I’m leery of it now; if the legislature doesn’t do what we want them to do than what good is it? Jim said I say we go forward with this. George said from what I’ve heard we let things hang for awhile.
MOTION: (J. Henderson and G. Cushman) To support trap tag freeze language. 3 in favor, 6 opposed, 1 abstention
Discussion began about how fast the lobster industry is changing. A suggestion was made by Gerry Cushman for the LAC to pick a topic for the next meeting and try to make some progress to work on some solutions. Chairman Bob Baines said the LAC could work on many suggestions that have been discussed here tonight including bait shortages, tiered license system, latent effort, etc.
4. Set next Meeting Date and Agenda
The date for the next Lobster Advisory Council is Thursday, November 13th.
MOTION: (J. Henderson and G. Cushman) To adjourn. Unanimous.
The meeting adjourned at 8:00 pm.
