Department of Marine Resources
Lobster Advisory Council Meeting Minutes
Department of Human Services
442 Civic Center Drive, Augusta
September 19, 2007 – 4:00 PM
A meeting of the Department of Marine Resources’ Lobster Advisory Council (Council) was held on this date at the Department of Human Services, 442 Civic Center Drive, Augusta, Maine. Council members attending this meeting included: Chair Bob Baines (Non-Zone Lobsterman), John Drouin (Zone A), Jon Carter (Zone B), Dan MacDonald (Zone C), Gerry Cushman (Zone D), Larry Knapp (Zone E), Elliott Thomas (Zone F), Jim Henderson (Zone G), and Peter McAleney (Western Dealer Member). Council members not present included: Ted Hoskins (General Public Member), Dana Rice, (Eastern Dealer), Dana McIntire (Non-Zone Lobsterman) and Cappy Sargent (Non-Zone Lobsterman). Deputy Commissioner David Etnier, Deirdre Gilbert, Sarah Cotnoir, Colonel Joe Fessenden, Carl Wilson, Jeni Menendez, John Sowles and Donna Hall of the Department of Marine Resources were also present. Others present were: Bill Doane, Lyman Kennedy, Dan Staples, Sheila Dassatt, Sonny Sprague, Patrice McCarron, Pat Pinto, Leo LaRossa, Nev Perryman and Dane Somers from the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.
The meeting convened at 4:10 p.m.
1. Welcome and Review of Agenda
2. Approval of Minutes (May 24, 2007)
MOTION: (J. Carter and E. Thomas) To accept the minutes of the May 24, 2007 meeting as written. Unanimous.
3. New Business
a. Live Lobster Handling – Leo LaRossa
Leo LaRossa from Lobster Health gave a presentation to the Lobster Advisory Council on a Live Lobster Integrated Handling, Holding and Shipping System. Leo spoke about the stressors that are placed on live lobsters and said that about 20% of lobsters die before they get to market which is approximately 14 million lobsters annually. Some of those stressors include commingling the generally solitary live lobster in crates, boxes and tanks, human touching, tumbling and shocks experienced on fishing boats in rough seas and during shipping, environmental changes such as: variable holding tank water temperatures, salinity and oxygen levels while traveling. Leo said in his opinion the price of lobster is based upon the live lobster and has a broad range of demands and without the live market, the processors set the price.
Leo explained and showed slides of the patented “Habitat System” that isolates and locks each lobster in its private compartment. It provides physical protection, significantly reduces the number of human touches and provides an optimal environment. The system is designed to provide a snug fit while providing built-in shock absorbers and acts as a second protective shell for the lobster. Each habitat system is placed in specifically modified totes and the habitat and tote combine to become the “no touch” method of handling, holding and transporting lobsters.
Leo’s demonstration started on-board the boat where the lobsters are removed from the traps, graded and placed into the habitats and totes. The lobsters are locked in to prevent any stress from sloshing in rough seas, and then there is a high rate of water circulation to insure water changes and high oxygen levels in each tote. Once on shore, the lobster habitats are dated, transported and held in high tech spray systems. The lobsters are not physically touched while high volumes of water are showered directly over the lobsters. The water is completely changed in each tote every two minutes, providing very high levels of oxygen and filtration. At shipping time, the habitat, containing the dated lobsters, are removed from the totes and placed into master cartons with coolant. When received by the retail store, the habitats are removed and placed in enclosures designed for full visibility and tracking, which enables the retailer to implement full traceability from boat to point of sale.
Bob Baines said he wasn’t sure how this system could be handled on the boat if you have to have water running through the system. We’re not equipped for that now and we would have to set up a water system on our boats. John Drouin said this would not work for him because he gets bait and fuel from the wharf where he sells his lobsters and the majority of fishermen rely on the wharf to take care of those items. Larry Knapp said he thought if you have a good working relationship with the guy who owns the wharf, maybe we could work something out with him. Pete McAleney said this may be a good system, but it will cost the fishermen thousands of dollars and they have more important things to discuss. L. Knapp said with this type of system, you could keep people honest. Pete said what happens if the lobsters are all dead. I don’t pay you. Where is the accountability?
Jon Carter said we all have 500-1,000 lb tanks aboard and he couldn’t imagine having the room on the boat for those types of totes and it would even be worse during bad weather. He said he thought this would be a hard sell. Leo said during peak season you have a higher volume of lobsters in your tanks and with this system you don’t get that. Jon said he thought it also would require them to have another person on board and it would slow the process down. J. Drouin said it may come to the day when we have a decrease in the trap limit. This is not a total waste, but I’m locked in to a dealer right now.
b. Presentation & Discussion of Tasmanian Rock Lobster Fishery – Nev Perryman
Nev Perryman gave a presentation to the Lobster Advisory Council on the Tasmanian Rock Lobster Fishery. Nev said he comes from a very small fishing community of 224 fishermen that fish with size limits and logbooks. The Tasmanian Rock Lobster Fishery is a 3rd generation fishery and has data from the 1940’s. Our catch is about 4 million pounds a year. We export to China and it is important to have good handling to keep an excellent product. Nev showed the council a copy of their logbook, which is recorded daily. He said they want to know the by-catch so they can make solid management decisions and they do have closed areas because of data. Nev said they use catch sampling, size length sampling and marine science to use as a benchmark. We get $25 per pound for the lobsters that are exported and $20 per pound sold on the local market. Nev stated that their season starts in November.
Pete McAleney asked if they have a soft-shell season. Nev said they do and they ship the hard-shell and sell the soft-shell on the local market. Pete asked what is the yield of your meat. Nev said he believed the same as here in Maine except Maine has more meat in the claws. Jon asked how many traps do you fish. Nev said that he fishes 50 traps. Jon said the reason you get higher prices is because you have fewer fishermen and you can regulate your prices. Nev said that Tasmania, South Australia and Victoria work together as one product and we all work well together. Sarah Cotnoir asked if they have limited entry in to their fishery. Nev said there are 300 licenses available and right now there are 224 fishermen. John Drouin asked what is your market system and do you have a large area to fish. Nev said he sells to a processor and compared to the Maine coast, we have a very small area to fish. John said if you can get $25 per pound for your lobster, we should be able to get more for ours. Nev said he recommended that Maine look at the Asian markets. Pat Pinto asked what they use for bait. Nev replied mackerel and barracuda and added that in their early season they cannot take females and that he likes Maine’s v-notch idea. Sarah asked how does your management process work. Nev said we work with the Government, Marine Police, TRLFA and stakeholders and decide where we are going and make recommendations to the Minister of Fisheries. The fishermen have a large say in how things are run.
c. Update on In-Shore Trawl Survey and Lobster Gear – John Sowles
John Sowles from the Department of Marine Resources updated the Lobster Advisory Council on the upcoming In-Shore Trawl Survey that will begin on October 1st. John told the Council that he was concerned that the success rate of the survey is going down because of the lack of cooperation from fishermen when the survey is done. John said that they will be sending out five separate mailings so fishermen can be better informed of where the lines are and that he would be happy to give anyone numbers that they might need to know on what the conversions are from Loran to GPS.
John said in past years we have worked hard to get cooperation from fishermen and that he has had discussions with Marine Patrol and this year we will be moving gear if we need to. John stated that we don’t like to get in to the gear and have to move it because it takes time away from our scheduled tows. He asked members of the Lobster Advisory Council to get the word out to the fishermen in their zones.
Jim Henderson asked if we will be doing the same tows as last year. J. Sowles said the majority of the tows are different from prior years.
Col. Joe Fessenden said we are not interested in moving anyone’s gear, but we have had problems Downeast and it has to stop. So if we have to move gear, we will. If DMR does not get cooperation from the industry we may be forced to go to rule-making to make it a violation if your gear is not moved within a tow area.
John Sowles asked for anyone’s suggestions on how the survey could be improved. Elliott Thomas asked when the fishermen would be receiving the information. John said the mailing had started this week and that they would be mailing more each week in hopes to give fishermen two weeks notice for their area. John Drouin asked what Joe meant by Downeast. Joe said the problems were in the Jonesport/Corea areas.
d. Update on Whale Rules
Sarah Cotnoir reported that the Commissioner, along with members of the Maine Lobstermen’s Association, the Downeast Lobstermen’s Association and she had met with the Governor last Friday to discuss the economic impact of the whale rules to Maine. Sarah said that Patrice McCarron, the Executive Director of MLA, did a great job crunching numbers. With the information that was brought forward, the Governor recommended a peer review from the State Planning Office.
Patrice encouraged the LAC to look at the information that was provided to the Governor on MLA’s website. We looked at whale sightings by decade and looked at clusters and did a second piece from Thistle logbooks and showed fishing migration. Patrice said when we looked at continuing to fish and conserving whales, the economic data from NMFS did not make sense. If we do end up in court with this, we want everything on record and it is all on our website.
Nev Perryman asked how many whale entanglements we have per year. Patrice said it is really hard to tell because of the broad categories and the data we have is kind of a mess. Nev asked how many whales die each year. Patrice said they really don’t know. It’s loaded with assumptions. Sheila Dassatt from the Downeast Lobstermen’s Association said another angle we used was the safety issue. What if the rope costs the life of a fisherman and we also pointed out that the exemption line needs to be moved out. Sarah said when the Governor wrote his letter to NOAA he did add the safety issue. Dan Staples thanked Patrice for all of her hard work and especially for getting the form letter out to fishermen encouraging them to write comments on the whale rules.
e. Tag Increase For Whale Research –
Sarah Cotnoir told the Lobster Advisory Council that in their packets they would find a sheet with the topic Large Whale Research Ideas/Needs. It explained some of the suggestions that Erin Summers, the Large Whale Scientist, has for whale research that the tag increase could fund. Sarah said that this is a list of possible research, but NMFS will help guide us on the data needs.
Elliott said that Zone F had voted 8 in favor, 1 against with a sunset for a tag increase. Gerry Cushman said that NMFS flies everyday, why can’t we use the same data. Patrice McCarron said these flyovers would be different areas of the coast. Jon Carter said Zone B was in favor if the money was earmarked for research with a sunset clause. Jim Henderson said Zone G wanted the money dedicated to research with a sunset. Larry said he can’t get a quorum in Zone E. Bob Baines asked Larry what he is hearing from the guys in Zone E. Larry said he doesn’t hear much because people are pretty discouraged. John D. said Zone A was in favor if the money was earmarked for research with a sunset clause.
Patrice said that Erin has some good ideas and the industry needs to comment. Elliott said increasing the tag fees is a good idea to get money for research and it doesn’t bite too deep in the fishermen’s pockets. Jon Carter said this Council should vote for enough money to cover the research, so we don’t have to come back and ask for more later on. Bob said this Council should vote on the concept, but let’s not put a nickel, dime or whatever on it tonight until we find out what we need. Gerry said Zone D voted for twenty cents. Bob said my point is if we vote on what the increase should be without knowing what we need for research and we don’t have enough, then we will have to go back.
J. Drouin said he was concerned about where the money goes and for how long. Bill Doane asked if we could get a trap tag breakdown for the next meeting. David Etnier said that DMR could do that. Some of Erin’s ideas we may not know the costs for months because we are seeking additional outside funding. Some things need further discussion, but we will hopefully have more information for the next meeting.
Bob Baines said tonight we can agree on supporting the tag increase with a sunset clause. Dan Staples said with a little over 3 million tags and the figures that we have been given from Erin, it looks like twenty cents is in the ballpark. Gerry said $160 from each fisherman is worth it to do the research with a sunset clause. Elliott said he could only support a ten cent increase.
Jim Henderson asked if the State is willing to put money toward this research. David Etnier said that the Department of Marine Resources does not have any money. The State of Maine has been asked to cut the budget by $10M. Bob asked if the Commissioner has the ability to do this increase. D. Etnier said the law says the Commissioner may have a trap tag fee and that this increase does not even need to go through rule-making. Elliott said he didn’t want to staff a position out of this money. Sarah said with this list of research possibilities, Erin could not possibly do all the work herself and we would need to do a contract for help. Larry said he needed to know how the money is going to be used. Everyone is making less money this year and people are not happy. Jon said we could do this research until 2010 and have an annual review. Gerry said why are we dragging our feet? People will be very unhappy if they go to sink line. Jim said that the guys in his harbor are not affected by the exemption line. Bob said we all support the concept.
MOTION: (G. Cushman and J. Carter) To increase the trap tag fee by $0.20 with an annual review to assess the need to maintain the annual trap tag increase. 5 in favor 4 against.
f. Random Drug Testing
Col. Joe Fessenden reported on the Random Drug Testing Sub-Committee. Joe said that the Sub-Committee met with the Coast Guard, Maine Motor Transport and the Maine Department of Labor. The Coast Guard representative thought that a random drug testing program would be very difficult to administer. At the meeting with Bill Forbes from Maine Motor Transport, we learned how a consortium works with the truck drivers who hold a Commercial Drivers License. Joe explained that a few days ago the Sub-Committee met with the Bill Peabody from the Maine Department of Labor and found out that the labor laws in regards to drug testing do not apply to commercial fishermen because there is not an employer/employee relationship. Joe said that today Sarah Cotnoir had been in touch with a consortium and he asked Sarah to report to the Lobster Advisory Council what she learned.
Sarah said she had talked with the Bayside Employee Health Center in Portland today and they informed her that it would cost $70 for each individual to join the consortium. Bayside works as a 3rd party administrator. For example, if they were given 15,000 names of people who are licensed commercial fishermen, they would be sampling 20% of them each year. The names of those fishermen would be given to the Department of Marine Resources and we would need to call the fishermen and tell them they need to go and be tested by 5:00 pm tomorrow at a collection site. Sarah explained that if we called someone and they were not available, we would go to the next name. Making phone calls and setting up appointments for testing would add a new administrative layer of work at DMR. We do not have the staff to cover these duties.
Jon Carter said that this whole process has been an eye opener. Everywhere we looked there was a brick wall and I don’t know how we could go about this without increasing license fees. Jon said he thought it was a good idea and it might help clean up some of the drug problems in some of the harbors, but I am willing to say we can’t go forward with this because I don’t see how we can make it work. It was first thought that the consortium would administer the entire program and provide the pass or fail results to Licensing. After further research, it seems that the Department of Maine Resources would have a great deal of involvement and additional costs.
Bob Baines said we have had a lot of support from the Department of Maine Resources to have these meetings, but it is nearly impossible to implement. I think we have done a good job looking into it, but we would need the support of the industry. Bob said the recommendation from the Sub-Committee is not to go any further with this.
Marine Patrol would support getting an officer or two DRE (Drug Recognition Expert) trained.
g. Double Tagging Discussion
A question was asked of Marine Patrol whether they think that double tagging is working. Col. Fessenden said that there haven’t been any violations and we no longer get the complaints from Zone G. Col. Fessenden said he believed that double tagging is working.
Elliott Thomas said he believed it is working and he remembered that the Commissioner said if it works well that it should be done in all zones. Elliott said it was brought to his attention that it has never been brought up again at the Department of Marine Resources Advisory Council meetings. David Etnier said we can put it on the agenda, but did not think it was the Department of Marine Resources’ intention to do this statewide. Col. Fessenden said this is not a problem in other areas. Elliott said he asked a Zone G guy if there are more traps and he said no. Bill Doane said he relies on the Marine Patrol to do their jobs and he does not have the time to watch what everyone is doing. Col. Fessenden said it is an enforcement tool and he thinks it’s been a success. Jon Carter said in Zone B they have no issues with lines. As the lines go, we we’re running back and forth with Zone A and now there is no issue. Lyman Kennedy said but at the same time if you had double tags it would have been an issue.
Bob Baines said this is an item that can be put on the DMR Advisory Council agenda and we cannot speak to something that needs to go through rule-making.
4. Old Business
Bob Baines stated that Sonny Sprague is at our meeting tonight and would like to have continued discussions on his proposal of lobster trap construction requiring traps to be equipped with a larger biodegradable “ghost” escape panel – a 4x4 mesh.
John Drouin said there is no support in Zone A for this change. Jon Carter said there is no science to support it and that an implementation date is of concern and Zone B is not in favor of it. Gerry Cushman said Zone D supported it. Elliott Thomas said show us the lobster will get out of the door. Jim Henderson said Zone G did not support it. Larry Knapp said Zone E likes what we have now. Dan MacDonald said Zone C did not want to talk about it without a proposal.
Sonny Sprague said we didn’t say the escape panel had to be in the door, but a larger escape panel offers additional protection for large broodstock lobsters, which we all need to worry about for the future. All it means is taking a 3 X 3 and cutting it out to a 4 X 4. I think it’s a good idea and I am very disappointed. Bob Baines said I agree with Sonny at a minimum, but if there is no support we can’t move forward. Sonny said there is a group of us that supports this and we will try to move this through the rule-making process.
5. Reports and Updates
a. DMR Updates
o Rulemaking
David Etnier explained that language was added to the alternative bait rule requiring the manufacturer to list the ingredients. This rule would go in to effect 1/1/08 but would be phased in. Bait manufacturers would have until 6/1/08 before they would be charged for violating this new rule.
The Department of Marine Resources Advisory Council met earlier today and adopted amendments bringing Maine in to compliance with herring regarding zero tolerance of spawn herring taken from within a restricted spawning management area.
o ASMFC
Sarah said we are trying to come up with a date in New Hampshire to talk about one of the issues raised in Draft Amendment 5 – limits on transfers of Federal Permits. Jon Carter said he preferred to wait until January to meet.
o Patrol Update
Col. Fessenden reported he would be going to the ASFMC meetings 10/28 thru 11/1. Joe said he wanted to bring to the Council’s attention that there are some issues with ordering of trap tags. Some fishermen are developing a pattern of not ordering their trap tags until the first week of May making it nearly impossible for the tags to be back to them and on their traps by the June 1st deadline. Most fishermen order their trap tags when they buy their lobster license. This year over 1,000 people did not order their tags until after May 1st. Joe said we will not be giving people a grace period after June 1st, if they ordered their trap tags after May 1st.
Col. Fessenden said that Marine Patrol was criticized some with LD 170 for not enforcing it in Area 1. He told Council members that Marine Patrol recently did some enforcement in Area 1 and intercepted 2 draggers and that 1/3 of the lobsters they had were illegal with broodstock, v-notched and oversized violations. Joe said one case pled out and the other one was still pending.
o Commercial Fishing Safety Council (CFSC) Update
Bob Baines said the CFSC has not met recently so there was nothing to report.
o State November 6th Referendum Election
Rep Percy asked Patrice McCarron to share two of the five ballot questions with the Lobster Advisory Council. One was a bond issue regarding a portion of the $35M bond going towards working waterfront. The other was a question about extending term limits for legislators from 4 to 6 terms. Rep Percy is in favor of both of these questions.
b. Zone/Industry Issues – Summaries
Zone A: Zone A met last Wednesday to talk about the whale rules. 4-5 guys also had a separate meeting about the gray zone to do with oversized broodstock being taken from the gray zone and gear entanglements. We’ve been told to deal with it, but we would like to see more enforcement around the border.
Zone B: Zone B had a meeting last week. Pleased with rope discussion. Talked about the whale rules, discussed price, marketing and processing of our lobsters.
Zone C: Had a meeting the end of August and did not have a quorum, talked about the limited entry questionnaire that was mailed to fishermen and having district meetings.
Zone D: Zone D had a meeting was a couple of weeks ago, talked about the whale rules.
Zone E: Had a meeting a few weeks ago, no quorum. Guys are upset that the catch is poor and they are taking on part time jobs to make ends meet. We need to talk about marketing our lobsters better.
Zone F: Meeting last week with discussion of the whale rules and complaining about the quantity and quality of the catch.
Zone G: Zone G had a meeting a few weeks ago, voted on the apprentice questionnaire that was mailed out to fishermen to move forward to rule-making, election of officers.
6. Set Next Meeting Date and Agenda
The date for the next Lobster Advisory Council meeting has not been set.
MOTION: (J. Carter and B. Baines) To adjourn. Unanimous.
The meeting adjourned at 7:15 pm.
